This week on the podcast Alyssa discusses a brand new, multi-episode topic. Pulling from Nedra Glover Tawwab’s book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself, Alyssa discusses what boundaries are, why we need them, and some of the most prominent areas in which people struggle to set boundaries.

Nedra Tawwab’s Instagram: @nedratawwab
Order Set Boundaries, Find Peace by Nedra Tawwab

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hi everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. Glad to be back here today. We are talking about boundaries which is in my opinion, one of the most important tools too, and not just healing, but also one of the most important tools that you can use in your everyday life as you go throughout your entire life. You need boundaries all of the time.

Alyssa Scolari [00:50]:

So before we get into that, just a few housekeeping things. If I have not gotten back to you yet, I know a few of you have reached out to me on Patreon. If I haven't gotten back to you yet, please forgive me. It's been a little bit hectic. I know that in the last episode, I talked about how I have really been struggling with depression. And at the time that I recorded that episode, I was saying like, "I just don't know why I feel this way, and I have done absolutely everything I can do to try to make myself feel better. I've tried to take care of myself to the best of my ability, and yet still, here I am so depressed."

Alyssa Scolari [01:31]:

Now in the time between when I recorded that episode, and when I am recording this episode, I have a lot more insight into why I was feeling the way that I was feeling. I thought that I understood maybe a part of why I was feeling really depressed with the anniversary of my mom getting really sick, but now that I've ... Well, I should say now that certain events in my life have unfolded, I can confidently say that I know more about why I was feeling so depressed, and I think that emphasizes the importance of hanging in there and riding the wave even if you don't understand what's happening because sometimes we don't understand what's happening, but it's important to hang in there anyway because I am on the mend.

Alyssa Scolari [02:24]:

Well, somewhat. I will continue to get better, and I now understand that I was gearing up for a goodbye. And I'm just going to briefly touch on what has happened. I will more than likely do an episode where I go into a little bit more depth about it, but I don't know for sure yet, I'm still trying to process what happened. And I'm still trying to grieve and figure out for myself what life is going to look like now because this truly was the hardest decision that I have ever made in my life.

Alyssa Scolari [03:09]:

I have made the decision to go no contact with my family and briefly, I had a falling out with my brother shortly after I recorded last week's episode. And due to the falling out with my brother, I terminated that relationship because I realized that it was not healthy for me at all, and hasn't been healthy for me for probably 30 years. And so I terminated that relationship. And as a result of terminating that relationship, my mother and I had a falling out about that. And it was really at that point that I knew for me that these relationships aren't going to work in my life no matter how much I wish that they would.

Alyssa Scolari [04:12]:

So I realize that it's time, it's time to walk away, it's time to say goodbye. It's time to step back from all of this, and as much as it hurt me, I don't question whether or not I did the right thing. I know that I have done the right thing. I don't question that because it was so harmful for me to continue in relationships where I can't be my authentic self, and so I had to walk away and it's ironic I think that this episode, we are talking about boundaries because this was a result.

Alyssa Scolari [04:57]:

This incident was a result of me trying to set boundary after boundary that just wasn't working and when it comes to family conflict or any kind of conflict, going no contact like right now, I think we are really in cut you off culture. "Well, you're not doing things my way, so I'm just going to cut you off." And a lot of people do that and that's passive aggressive when we're not actually explicitly stating the problem, that can be pretty passive aggressive, but cut off or cutting somebody off, not this cutoff culture that we live in where we're so quick to just be like, "I'm done with you."

Alyssa Scolari [05:41]:

Making the decision to go no contact with somebody or cut somebody off is typically or should be if exercised in the appropriate way, it should be a decision that comes after years and years or not even years, but after multiple failed attempts at trying to repair the relationships or trying to establish boundaries in the relationships, right? That's when we start talking about, "Do I even want to be in this relationship, friendship, et cetera, if things aren't improving?" So when I say that I went no contact, I by no means want to give the impression that this was an impulsive decision or something that I have done without ever really trying to fix the problem.

Alyssa Scolari [06:30]:

This is something that for me personally has been 30 years in the making. And again, I don't question whether I did the right thing or the wrong thing. I know it was the right thing for me, but there is a heavy amount of grief there just because it was the right decision doesn't mean that it hasn't been really difficult for me. There's a lot of grief, there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of anger and it feels like I've been preparing for it this whole last month with how depressed I was feeling.

Alyssa Scolari [07:13]:

I started reading Harry Potter again and mind you, I don't like J.K. Rowling, and I do not buy things now that support her. I have the books Harry Potter is, and always will be one of the most important parts of my childhood and my adulthood apparently. So I don't like Joanne Rowling. She is a trans exclusionary, radical feminist. She is extremely transphobic. She is very, very harmful to the transgender community, so don't support her at all as an aside, but I have been reading Harry Potter and Harry Potter is something that got me through so much when I was younger. So, so much.

Alyssa Scolari [08:03]:

This boy that has been hurt time after time after time and had nobody there or seemingly nobody there, but persisted anyway. And I started picking up those books again recently, and I've been really, really into them and just really drawn into to that world. And I think because emotionally speaking, there are so many parallels with Harry Potter's worlds and mine, and so in a way it feels like I knew this was coming.

Alyssa Scolari [08:38]:

I think my body was just preparing and then it happened, and I feel a lot of things, grief and relief. The whole gamut of emotions is what I feel. So I have been really just taking time to heal and recover and learn how to move through my life, and I guess just heal. That's the bottom line, I'm figuring out how to heal. So if I'm less responsive on Patreon, bear with me. If I'm less responsive on Instagram, also bear with me.

Alyssa Scolari [09:19]:

I am just taking my time to move through all of the feelings as they come, and we will see where I'm at next week. I will, of course update you on how I'm feeling and things of that nature, but that is what happened. I had to go no contact with my family and it sucked. It sucked, bottom line. So enough about that. Let's get into what we're talking about today, and what we're talking about today is boundaries as I mentioned.

Alyssa Scolari [09:50]:

So boundaries is, or boundaries are the one thing that I think so many people hate when it comes to therapy and healing and recovery because they are the hardest things to set. I believe, especially for trauma survivors who have typically had some part of our bodies or minds controlled by somebody else, trauma survivors who have been made to feel like their body isn't their own or their voice doesn't matter. We really struggle with boundaries, and I really struggled with boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [10:31]:

I once had a supervisor tell me several jobs ago that I had terrible boundaries. Actually, she didn't say I had terrible boundaries. She said I had shitty boundaries, yelled at me and told me that I had boundaries. I was horrified by that. I was super young. I was super new in the field, and I look back at that and I'm like, huh? She was right. Now, don't get me wrong. She was so, so wrong to say that, and it was so inappropriate of her to say that, and I was so angry at how she said that to me, but she was right, she was absolutely right.

Alyssa Scolari [11:15]:

And I have had to work so hard over the last several years to make my boundaries healthier. I believe that boundaries are a work in progress. I think we are always working on them, and I don't think we ever get to the space where we're like a hundred percent perfect in all of our boundaries. I don't know, maybe we do, but I've never met anybody who's a hundred percent perfect in all of their boundaries, but it's something to always be worked on because at the end of the day, boundaries are the gateway to healing, they are the gateway to peace.

Alyssa Scolari [11:53]:

They are the gateway to good and happy and healthy relationships with ourselves, and others. Boundaries are everything. I firmly believe that, and so many other therapists out there also believe that. So we are talking about this right now. What are boundaries? Why do we need them? How do I know if I have poor boundaries? What do I do if I have terrible boundaries? How do I get better? Why is this so scary for me? How do I move past the anxiety around setting boundaries?

Alyssa Scolari [12:30]:

We're talking about all of it, and we are not going to be able to fit all of it into one episode. So this is going to be a multiple episode topic, but we're getting through it because I think that this is one of the most useful tools to have in your tool belt. Dare I say it is the most useful tool, at least for me, it's been the most useful. Absolutely. So over the course of the next few episodes, I am going to be pulling a lot of information from one of my favorite books about boundaries, and the author of this book is Nedra Glover Tawwab, and if you don't follow her on Instagram, you absolutely should.

Alyssa Scolari [13:21]:

She is incredible. She has 1.5 million followers. She is phenomenal, a phenomenal therapist. So I will link her Instagram as well as the book in the show notes. So you can feel free to go and check that out, but the title of her book is called Set Boundaries, Find Peace, A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself. This book is amazing. It's not super long. I have listened to it several times on Audible, so I just listened to it in my car when I'm driving.

Alyssa Scolari [13:58]:

I highly recommend this book. It was truly life changing for me, and I think that this book was part of the reason why I was able to get to a place where I said no more to my relationship with my family. So let's get right into it. The first question being, what are boundaries? And I think this is one of the first chapters in Nedra's book Set Boundaries, Find Peace. What in the world are boundaries? How do we define boundaries? Right?

Alyssa Scolari [14:30]:

That word in itself when I bring it up to people, a lot of people, they know what they are, but have trouble putting words to it. So we're going to break it down very simply which is boundaries are rules or expectations that need to be met in order for relationships whether that relationship is with ourselves or with other people. Rules, expectations that need to be met in order for relationships to operate in a healthy manner. In order for us to be happy, boundaries are required.

Alyssa Scolari [15:15]:

So let's break that down a little bit, right? It might make sense at first to be like, "Okay, well, I understand why boundaries might be needed with other people, but what do you mean myself? How do I set boundaries with myself?" And sometimes, that looks like getting on a schedule, having a routine, making time to detox from technology, right? Getting off the phone, getting off the computer. All of these little things that we do are self-boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [15:49]:

They're boundaries that we have with ourselves to keep ourselves happy and healthy. So why do we need them? Why on earth do we need boundaries? Well obviously, it keeps us happy and healthy, but what happens when we don't have them? What happens if we don't have boundaries that are strong enough or boundaries that are too strong? Well, according to Nedra, relationships that are complicated or relationships that don't have great boundaries are among the leading causes of anxiety.

Alyssa Scolari [16:29]:

So poor relationships, relationships that aren't healthy, relationships that need improvement on boundaries are one of the biggest causes of anxiety. And that makes so much sense because so many people come to therapy, not just in a vacuum, right? People don't come to therapy and just say, "Well, I am struggling with depression." Or, "I have an eating disorder." No, behind the depression, behind the eating disorder, behind the anxiety disorder is typically, "Well, I have problems with this person and I have issues at work, and my boss is making me work 60 hours a week, and my mother won't stop calling me and my partner won't let me talk to other people of the opposite sex."

Alyssa Scolari [17:19]:

People come to therapy with problems that involve more often than not other people. I have never sat down with a client who came to me with a problem, and the problem was just a little, just about them. This problem almost always encompasses other people. So when we don't have boundaries, we don't have healthy enough boundaries, we tend to fail in our relationships or our relationships don't serve us, and this can exacerbate mental health disorders, and especially for somebody who has trauma, has a history of trauma, this can really exacerbate PTSD symptoms.

Alyssa Scolari [18:05]:

So how do you know if you are somebody who doesn't have great boundaries? Well, a lack of boundaries in itself can trigger an onset of tons of negative things, right? Including resentment and anxiety and depression and avoidance can also include overwhelm, feelings of burnout. These are all signs that boundaries are poor. I learned in grad school, I think one of the most important things that I learned in grad school and a tool that I keep in my back pocket to this day is my professor said it, Dr. Jim Hall who is amazing, love Dr. Hall.

Alyssa Scolari [18:57]:

He said to us one day in class, "If you are feeling burned out, if you are feeling stressed out, if you are starting to resent some of the clients that you are working with, that is a sign that you need better boundaries in your life." And I have never forgotten that. So this day, if I find myself getting not necessarily resentful because I don't really resent my clients, but sometimes if I get frustrated, if I feel like I'm working really, really hard, and this person isn't necessarily like meeting me halfway, or if I start to get burned out and I start to feel really, really overwhelmed, I know that that problem is my problem.

Alyssa Scolari [19:46]:

That's not a problem for my clients. The problem isn't my clients, it's never my clients. If I'm feeling some kind of way, that is because my boundaries aren't good enough or because something is going on within me, it's not the client's fault at all. That is a sign that my boundaries aren't as great as they could be. And so to this day, every time I felt this way, I have made it a point to readjust my boundaries, tighten them up a little, and then I feel so much better, and I enjoy my job so much more because here's the thing, right?

Alyssa Scolari [20:22]:

We live in this world where we almost shame selfishness in some ways. In some areas, we shame selfishness, right? Oh, you're being so selfish. Oh, why don't you care about anybody else? And then of course, in other ways, I feel like we live in a very, at least in the United States, right? It's very every man for himself, every woman for himself, every person for themselves. But in some ways, I find when it includes mental health and relationships, interpersonal relationships, it is more along the lines of we get shamed for putting ourselves first.

Alyssa Scolari [21:11]:

Oh, well, how could you not pick up the phone when that person needs you? You're not a good person. Why aren't you, why aren't you helping them move this weekend? And the thing about that is at the end of the day, you cannot save anybody else if you don't put your oxygen mask on first. You can't help other people if you can't help yourself and you will continue to have relationships where you feel resentful, or you feel like your needs aren't getting met until you decide that you have to come first, until you decide that you looking out for you is not selfish.

Alyssa Scolari [21:58]:

It is self-care. It is a requirement for survival for thriving. You have to look out for you first. Now, this is a really hard concept for people who are chronic people pleasers. I was raised as a people pleaser. I was raised that it doesn't matter what's going on in your life, it doesn't matter what's happening in your world. You need to drop everything and be there for other people, and if you don't, it's selfish, it's not right. It's not okay.

Alyssa Scolari [22:34]:

This is very, very hard to do, right? Because for those of us who are people pleasers, as soon as somebody needs us, or as soon as the going gets tough, the first thing to go on our list is usually self-care. We will put self-care so low on the totem pole because we are trying to meet the needs of everybody else first. This is often really true with moms. Moms, dads, parents. This is so true.

Alyssa Scolari [23:01]:

We will put, I say we like I'm a parent. I'm a dog mom, okay? It counts. We will put our needs so low on the totem pole. I have to feed the kids. I have to get them dressed. I have to take them to their after school sports. And we during none of that make time for ourselves in the slightest. Now listen, I'm not saying it's easy. Being a mom, I think is the hardest job in the whole world.

Alyssa Scolari [23:36]:

Being a parent in general I think is the hardest job in the entire world. Of course because of stigma, right? Because of the patriarchy, women are expected to do much more and often are doing so much more. So I think a lot of that pressure falls more on women and women are more likely to push their self-care to the side. So yeah, it's especially difficult when you have kids, when you have little ones who need you constantly to make time for yourself, but again, you can't show up as your best self to anybody if you're not putting yourself first.

Alyssa Scolari [24:19]:

And when we're not putting ourselves first and we're not getting our needs met, then we start to resent other people. And we feel like, "well, I'm always there for other people. Why isn't anybody showing up for me?" Because the other thing is, is that people benefit from you having poor boundaries, right? Nedra says this in the book and it is so important to remember. People benefit from you not having appropriate boundaries because then they can get more from you, and it's not necessarily an inherently bad thing.

Alyssa Scolari [24:54]:

I'm not saying that the people in your life are like, "Oh, I can see that Jane has terrible boundaries, and I'm going to milk her for everything she is worth." No, but it's nature, right? People test limits. People see, they want to see how much they can get away with. So people are going to take advantage of your poor boundaries and then you're going to feel resentful, you're going to feel overwhelmed, you're going to feel burnt out.

Alyssa Scolari [25:24]:

You're going to start to get very anxious, and you're either going to start to get angry with people, or you're going to become very depressed and you're going to feel lonely, and perhaps might isolate. Maybe you get a lot of anxiety because you don't want to talk to anybody. You don't want to open your inbox. You don't want to look at all your emails. You start to have panic attacks on Sunday nights before work the next day because you don't want to know all the work that your boss is going to put on you. You avoid, right?

Alyssa Scolari [25:57]:

You avoid. You either lash out at people or you avoid and you try to disappear. Now, I took a survey on my Instagram in a way to prepare for this episode because I thought it would be interesting to get all of your feedback. And I asked the question when you are in a conflict with somebody, what are you more likely to do? And the options were avoid conflict at all costs, set boundaries with the person and talk it through or cut the person off completely.

Alyssa Scolari [26:40]:

Now much to my surprise, nobody said cut the person off completely. Nobody said that. A few people said set boundaries, but the overwhelming majority of you, I think it was 88% of you said I will avoid conflict at all costs. And I see this so many times in my practice too. People will come in and they will avoid conflict and avoid conflict, but then their mental health will get worse and worse and worse. And honestly, I think that's what was happening to me over this last month.

Alyssa Scolari [27:23]:

I was avoiding ending things with my family. And so my mental health got worse and worse and worse and worse until I couldn't take it anymore, and I had to decide that I needed to come first. So this happens all of the time. Now there are three different types of boundaries. And first, we have poorest boundaries. Okay? So what are poorest boundaries? These are often people with weaker boundaries like in the sense that they have a lot of trouble setting those boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [28:03]:

So they're too involved with other people. They will ruin their own day just so they can be there for somebody else. They will cancel their doctor's appointment just because somebody calls them and says, "Hey, I need you. Do you have time to talk?" These people are highly dependent on other people and they have a really difficult time with feeling highly anxious, overwhelmed, very burnt out.

Alyssa Scolari [28:31]:

These are your people pleasers. Very difficult time saying no, always wanting to help others. Yes, I'll help you move. Yes, I'll cancel my plans with my family and I will help you move. Yes, I will drive to your house for the millionth time even though you never drive to my house, and I won't say anything about it, but I am going to feel resentful. These are people who often struggle with like codependency and enmeshment.

Alyssa Scolari [28:56]:

They become extremely attached to other people. In general, they just struggle to say no. I just can't say no to anybody, and then we have healthy boundaries. Healthy boundaries is exactly what it is. It's when you are setting rules and expectations with yourself and other people without your past trauma showing up to the interaction. I hope that makes sense. This is something that I have taken from Nedra's book, and this is what she says, and I think that it's absolutely brilliant.

Alyssa Scolari [29:42]:

You are setting rules and expectations without letting your pain from the past, your trauma from the past show up. Without letting the fact that you have been abandoned as a child, the fact that your father left when you were younger, the fact that you have a history of sexual abuse, that's staying in the past and here you are setting roles and expectations without apologizing, without over explaining, without feelings of immense guilt or anxiety. Those are healthy boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [30:20]:

That is what we are all striving for, easier said than done. I am much better at setting boundaries, but I sure as heck struggle with guilt and anxiety almost every time that I set them. And I think that this is just something that gets better over time and with practice. So then we have rigid boundaries. This is when your boundaries are just like entirely too strong.

Alyssa Scolari [30:48]:

Strong might not necessarily be the right word. I would say more rigid or inflexible boundaries. So when your boundaries are just entirely too rigid, and this can often look like folks who have like an all or nothing mentality sometimes. It's like I never, ever, ever will allow somebody to borrow money from me, never. And they just take that boundary to the grave. There is zero flexibility, there is zero chance of like, "Okay, well, what if your child is hard up for money and needs gas in their car? Are you going to say no? They need gas in their car to be able to get to work. What are you going to say?"

Alyssa Scolari [31:36]:

These people don't have space for that. They can't think of a gray area. It's like, "I am absolutely not going to do this or I am absolutely always going to do this. This could also be the person who go to the gym every single day. Now that could also be eating disorder related, but if this person's just like every single day, I have to be at the gym from 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. and they are so inflexible.

Alyssa Scolari [32:04]:

Something pops up, there's an emergency. I can't come, I'm at the gym. I can't come, I'm at the gym. There's no wiggle room in their boundaries. People who have rigid boundaries will often cut people off. Again, and I said this earlier. They will cut people off without making attempts to set healthy boundaries. They don't want to listen to anyone else's input, and really what rigid boundaries do is it protects people from getting too close to other people.

Alyssa Scolari [32:38]:

It protects from building relationships, it puts a wall between them and other people. So those are the three different types of boundaries. Hopefully if you have listened to this, you can identify which boundary you have and which category that you fall into. Now, Nedra in her book, and I think that this is really important to mention. She also goes on to say that there are a few of the major areas that people struggle with when it comes to boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [33:18]:

And some of those areas are family, and I think this will make sense to a lot of us on this podcast. It is one of the hardest things to do to set boundaries with your family. Whether that's you can't keep giving money to your sister, or you don't want your brother living with you anymore, or you don't want your mother telling you how to parent your children. You don't want her input, things like that can be very, very difficult for people.

Alyssa Scolari [33:54]:

Work. So many people go to therapy because their work is so stressful. People really struggle to set boundaries with work especially in this new work from home environment that most of us have fallen into since COVID, or not most, many. It can be really, really difficult to make that determination of when am I going to stop checking my emails? When am I going to make a decision that I'm not going to pick up the phone when I boss is calling me? At what time is that going to stop?

Alyssa Scolari [34:34]:

Romantic relationships, this is also another huge one. People struggle if their partners are doing something that they don't appreciate, or that is harmful to them. People struggle, and I think a lot of that is the fear of abandonment. I don't want them to leave. Friends, very similar thing. People really struggle to set boundaries for friends because they're afraid of how people are going to react, and technology.

Alyssa Scolari [35:02]:

This is one that I think before really doing a deep dive into boundaries, I would've never even thought about, but it goes back to what I was saying in the beginning of the podcast where boundaries are really important to be able to set with yourself as well. How many hours a day am I going to be on my phone? How often am I going to check my email? Am I going to pick up the phone every time somebody calls me or am I going to let it go to voicemail, see what they want, and then get back to them when I have the space for it?

Alyssa Scolari [35:36]:

I've had to do a lot of hard work with technology in terms of just not scrolling TikTok at night, because all the blue light will keep you up for so much longer, and I struggle with insomnia. Just spending less and less time on social media because it depresses me. It really does, and also with emails and responding to people, feeling that need to just respond to people all the time versus looking at their texts or their voicemails, and then getting back to them when it's convenient for me.

Alyssa Scolari [36:11]:

If it's not, an emergency that I absolutely have to be there for like a life or death situation. So those are some of the main areas that Nedra Tawwab says that people struggle. And I believe it, I believe it. I think it's really, really fascinating. So that is a lot of information that I just threw at you. If I haven't convinced you already to get Nedra's book, this is me saying you totally should because it's a really, really good book, and I'm sure as I have spoken today, you all have been able to see a little bit of yourselves in what I am saying.

Alyssa Scolari [36:54]:

I am somebody who has poorest boundaries or I did have poorest boundaries. I think I have worked my way towards healthier boundaries, but I am just such a people pleaser. So this is something that I've had to work really hard on. It's been very difficult, but extremely rewarding because my life, my business, my relationships have been so much healthier as a result of working on these boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [37:25]:

So this is not the end of our conversation my friends. This is only the beginning of us talking about boundaries. We've learned a lot about how people struggle, the different types of boundaries, and now, we are also going to talk about how we set those boundaries, what some of the fears are, how some people might react. We're going to get into more of the practical stuff.

Alyssa Scolari [37:53]:

I am really enjoying talking about this, and I hope that you have enjoyed listening. If you like what you hear, please feel free to leave us a review and a rating. It goes a really long way in helping to increase visibility of the podcast, and if you haven't done so already, you can also feel free to check out the Patreon link in the show notes. There you can donate to the podcast if you are liking what you hear.

Alyssa Scolari [38:22]:

Even a little bit goes a really long way in terms of helping to make this podcast a well-oiled machine. I am so grateful for the Patreon members that we have. Also, if you are a Patreon member, you can make a special request for episode topics. You can feel free to reach out to me and say, "Hi, I would love to hear from you." Take care, have a wonderful week, and I am holding you in the light.

Alyssa Scolari [38:48]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that's patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support.

Speaker 2 [39:25]:

[Singing].