Chris Friend (Kean University) talks with Brenna Clarke Gray (Thompson Rivers University) about finding hope in education, even—or especially—in today’s world. Along the way, Brenna explains the importance of learning technologists, the dangers of cruel optimism, and the critical need for honesty at all levels in academia. A complete episode transcript is available. Our theme music is by Blue Dot Sessions. This episode’s cover art is by Aaron Burden on Unsplash. The show is hosted on Anchor.fm, and you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. The full catalog of episodes, including show notes and complete transcripts, lives at hybridpedagogy.org/podcast.