Episode 199 – Eternal Information – Part 7 – Living Information 2
Welcome to Anchored by Truth brought to you by Crystal Sea Books. In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” The goal of Anchored by Truth is to encourage everyone to grow in the Christian faith by anchoring themselves to the secure truth found in the inspired, inerrant, and infallible word of God.
Script:
By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
Hebrews, chapter 11, verse 3, New Living Translation

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VK: Hello! I’m Victoria K. Welcome to Anchored by Truth brought to you by Crystal Sea Books. Thank you for joining us here today on Anchored by Truth. For several episodes we have been doing a series we call “Eternal Information.” We’ve covered a lot of ground so far in this series. For those listening today who may have missed some of the earlier episodes we encourage you to go to our website crystalseabooks.com where you can hear them. And, of course, anyone who just wants to review an episode even if they heard it before can always go to crystalseabooks.com for a review. This series in particular has been one of those series where each episode builds on the material from previous episodes. In the studio we have RD Fierro. RD is an author and the founder of Crystal Sea Books. RD, would you like to amplify a little more on what I was just talking about – that this series of Anchored by Truth is a series where we are steadily building on what came before?
RD: Sure. But before I do that I would also like to extend my greetings to everyone who is joining us here today. I suspect most listeners are probably like me. When I first came across the concept of information as one more way in which God’s presence in the universe is manifest I was completely unfamiliar with it. Like all listeners, I used information everyday throughout the day. But I never gave any thought about information itself. Information was kind of like air. It was just there. But I never stopped to think about how it got there. Then I came across Dr. Werner Gitt’s book entitled In the Beginning was Information and I had one of those “light bulb” moments. The presence of information requires the presence of intelligence and there is no way we can avoid living in this universe and avoid the fact that it contains information. But to try to communicate all that this concept involves isn’t easy. Unlike some subjects where we connect with them easily digging deeper into how information functions within the universe requires a lot of … well, information.
VK: Studying information requires a lot of information. I’m not sure if that is profound or just redundant …
RD: Probably a little of both. At any rate there are a lot of ideas that are tied up in thinking about how information again assures us that there must be a Designing Mind behind the universe as we know it. So, we began unpacking those ideas one at a time.
VK: Such as the fact that information is an essential component of the universe that we know. Unlike other components with which we are more familiar like matter and energy information stands apart in the way in which it presents itself. Information is non-material. It is not dependent for its existence on matter or energy but matter and energy can be used to transmit, receive, or store it. The same keyboard, wires, and screens can exchange recipes for pies, maps to buried treasure, or diagrams for making bombs. The information doesn’t change the plastic, copper, or silicon in the keyboard or screen. But neither is the plastic, copper, or silicon responsible for the content of the information. These aren’t the kind of ideas we think about everyday.
RD: Right. And those ideas are just the beginning of what we had to undertake. And the specific idea that we have been pursuing for the last couple of episodes of Anchored by Truth is that the presence of information in living creatures is undeniable. A couple of episodes ago we spent some time on the basics of biochemistry and last time we began our dive into the most information storage system on the planet: DNA.
VK: So, today we want to finish that discussion. But just as a brief recap last time we began covering the fact that DNA is actually a four-dimensional information storage system. Just about every information system invented or used by man is one-dimensional. When we transmit information through written text we get the information by reading the text from left to right. And even though there are some writing systems like ancient Hebrew that are read right to left the same observation applies. We get the information by going in one direction. Try to read the same text backward and all you get is gobbledygook. But as we began showing last time DNA doesn’t just store and transmit information in one dimension or in one direction. DNA does so on multiple levels. RD, why don’t you briefly remind us of what we covered when we went over the first three dimensions in which DNA stores information?
RD: And DNA is built from compounds called nucleotides. Nucleotides consist of a sugar, a nitrogen containing base, and a phosphate group. There are 4 bases that comprise the structure of DNA: adenine [a-duh-neen], guanine [gwaa-neen}, cytosine [sai-tuh-seen], and thymine [thigh-mean]. They are usually abbreviated A, G, C, and T. So, these are the “letters” of the genetic alphabet. And DNA is made up of two long strands – the famous double helix – joined by means of the associations: A with T and C with G. This means that the two strands are complimentary. One of the key takeaways about DNA is that DNA’s information function is not dependent on its chemistry. Just as the chemistry of ink and paper do not determine the information that is present on a printed page, the chemical components that comprise DNA do not determine the messages that it stores and sends. So, the first level of information that DNA contains is simply the order of the “letters” – the nucleotide base pairs. The entire human genome has been mapped. So, we know the order of the letters for it. The first 15 letters of DNA in the human “Y” chromosome are “CTAACCCTAACCCTA.”
VK: So, this first level of information is just a sequence of letters. That seems pretty simple. But you start to get a hint of the other levels of information when you realize that we have between 20,000 and 25,000 genes but our bodies produce over 100,000 different proteins. Some estimates are that the human body produces over 300,000 distinct proteins. If the sequence of the letters in DNA is the first level of information, what is the second level?
RD: The second dimension of the genome deals with the way one section of DNA interacts with another section. It’s easy enough to create a visual depiction of the first dimension of DNA. It is essentially just a long sequence of the letters A, C, T, and G. But trying to draw a pictorial representation of the second dimension would be a dizzying array of lines and arrows connecting different parts of the linear string of DNA. At first when scientists discovered DNA and genes they thought they had discovered the key to a lot of biological mysteries. One of the key ideas that emerged into science was the idea that one gene coded for one protein. Proteins are, of course, the molecular machines of life.
VK: But that idea was too simple wasn’t it, especially for higher organisms? As we mentioned earlier the human body produces far more different proteins than we have genes.
RD: Yes. The linear left to right read of DNA coupled with the idea that each gene, essentially a subsection of DNA, coded for one protein turned out to be far too simplistic. For instance, our protein genes are broken up into a series of “exons” (the parts that code for protein) and “introns” (non-coding intervening sequences). To make a protein, the gene is first transcribed into RNA, then the introns are spliced out, the exons are stitched together, and the remainder is translated into protein. That might seem straightforward. But we now know that some proteins are manufactured through a process called “alternate splicing”, where exons from different locations in the genome are combined to create many different proteins. In fact, we have learned that alternate splicing is so pervasive that the definition of the word “gene” as it was originally conceived had just about lost its meaning. The one gene-one enzyme hypothesis turned out to be a gross oversimplification.
VK: Biologist Dr. Robert Carter has said this about the second informational dimension of DNA. “The second dimension deals with things like specificity factors, enhancers, repressors, activators, and transcription factors. These are proteins that are coded in the DNA, but they move to another part of the genome after they are made and turn something on or off. But there are additional things happening in this dimension.” In other words there’s a lot of information that DNA supplies to the body that isn’t tied to a simple left to right reading of the letters. There are connections being made between different sections of the DNA that are also necessary for life.
RD: Yes. As I said last time, trying to pictorially represent the information connections within DNA would be so complicated it would be as if you were standing in the midst of a galaxy with beams of light zinging among the stars. There would be so many beams connecting various stars you wouldn’t be able to count them all. And we still are only talking about the second dimension of DNA that supplies information. The third dimension has to do with how DNA is actually stored within the body. The body doesn’t store DNA as a long string. It couldn’t. The DNA is coiled into a very precise 3-D shape.
VK: Dr. Carter has also written that, “The third dimension [of information] deals with how the shape of the DNA molecule affects the expression and control of different genes. We have learned that sections of DNA that are buried deep within the coiled-up DNA cannot be activated easily. So genes that are used often are generally easily accessible. Thus, when God wrote out the information in the genome along that one-dimensional strand, He intentionally put things in a certain order so that they would be in the correct place when the DNA was folded into a 3-D shape.”
RD: Yes. It would be extremely impractical for the body to store DNA in a linear state. We talked about the amazing fact that the DNA in a single cell would be about 6 feet long if it were laid out in a straight line. It would be extremely thin but it would stretch for 6 feet. The National Institutes for Health have estimated that the DNA present in a human body would be over 67 Billion miles long if all the strands were laid end to end – that’s the equivalent of 150,000 trips to the moon – and back. To store all that DNA the body coils it in tight coils that fit within the nuclei of the various cells. And we now know that genes that are used together are generally found next to each other in the 3 dimensional storage arrangement even when those genes are found on different chromosomes.
VK: Last time we used the example of a homeowner organizing his garage. A wise homeowner is likely to organize the garage so the garden shears are close to the rakes rather than with the Christmas light strings and nativity set. The homeowner does this it is because the homeowner knows and understands the use of the things they are storing. In putting things away in the garage they are applying information and intelligence. So, the first dimension of information storage in DNA is the order of the letters. The second is how various sections of DNA actually act in concert with other sections. And the third is how the DNA functions in its 3-dimensional configuration not just as a linear string.
RD: Exactly. Well our time ran out last time before we could get to the 4th dimension of the information that DNA contains.
VK: Which is …?
RD: Time.
VK: Time?
RD: Time. As incredible as it might seem we now know that the way DNA performs its function changes as time goes by and we know that these changes occur in all the other dimensions. Dr. Carter has written “The shape (3rd dimension), interaction network (2nd dimension), and the sequence of letters (1st dimension) all change. This so far outstrips even our most modern computers that the analogy isn’t even fair anymore.” Dr. Carter gives this example. “We know that different liver cells have different chromosome counts. This is due to the fact that the liver needs lots of copies of certain genes that are involved in metabolism and detoxification. Instead of filling the genome with many copies of these genes, the liver just makes copies of them for its own use. We also know that different brain cells have different number and locations of various transposons.”
VK: Transposons are segments of DNA which are capable of moving within or among chromosomes. Transposons were once thought by evolutionists to be “jumping genes” that were leftovers from ancient viral infections. But they’re not. Transposons are vital for the development of the human brain. In other words, our genome is able to dynamically reprogram itself. As Dr. Carter wrote, “This is something that computer scientists have long struggled with. How can you make a self-modifying code that does not run out of control?”
RD: So, as amazing as the first three dimensions of DNA’s information are in some ways the 4th dimension truly seems like something out of science fiction. As we go through life our DNA reprograms itself to adapt for where we are in life. It’s hard sometimes to remember that we are talking about a group of atoms and molecules that are present in the nucleus of every one of our 30 to 40 trillion cells. Now again, let’s not lose sight of the basic point. The alternate hypothesis that is offered to Biblical creationism is blind and random chance.

VK: Those people who reject the existence of God, and in particular the God of the Bible, must conceive of the world and universe as being composed of matter, energy, time, and space. But no one sees time and space as possessing creative capacity so they are really down to matter and energy. So, their concept for the origin of DNA is that at one point some hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon atoms fortuitously collided and started making some simple organic compounds. Some of these organic compounds ran into each other and poof some simple amino acids or nucleotides were produced. Then these extremely elementary organic collections ran randomly and accidentally collected in one place and all that jostling about produced a string of DNA which contains, at a minimum, millions of atoms. The more you talk about it the more far-fetched it seems.
RD: It seems far-fetched because it is far-fetched. And it’s not like evolutionists don’t realize the problems their scenario involves they do. So, they try to craft solutions such as saying that there are unseen “organizing forces” present within physics and chemistry that overcome most of the seeming impossibilities. And there have been extensive computer simulations offered with supposedly random substitutions occurring in strings of letters that show that with enough time and chemical components just the right set needed will emerge. But one basic problem with all these attempts is that they start with a huge amount of information about how life functions today. They ignore the fact that undirected matter and energy would have none of that. Moreover, undirected matter and energy would have no goal of producing life. The evolutionary apologists always start with their own goal of showing how it might be possible. But that’s quite a different thing from showing how it actually occurred.
VK: As we often point out on Anchored by Truth explaining the origin of a thing is quite different from explaining its operation. We know today much about how life operates. We know the chemical elements involved. We know the structure of organic compounds and how those compounds can link up and form the ever increasingly complicated structures used by all living things. But an ocean of chemicals just drifting about knows none of that.
RD: And I should emphasize at this point that this discussion that we have had about the four dimensional nature of the information DNA contains has only skimmed the surface. I would highly recommend listeners going to the website for Creation Ministries International and spending some time there reading the various articles on DNA. There’s a lot more to DNA than we have time to discuss in this series.
VK: Such as?
RD: Such as the fact that DNA has its own repair system.
VK: Wikipedia says this about the DNA repair system. “DNA repair is a collection of processes by which a cell identifies and corrects damage to the DNA molecules that encode its genome. In human cells, both normal metabolic activities and environmental factors such as radiation can cause DNA damage, resulting in tens of thousands of individual molecular lesions per cell per day. Many of these lesions cause structural damage to the DNA molecule and can alter or eliminate the cell's ability to transcribe the gene that the affected DNA encodes. … As a consequence, the DNA repair process is constantly active as it responds to damage in the DNA structure.”
RD: The DNA repair system is just another facet of DNA that defies explanation by evolutionary development. Without the repair system DNA would quickly be damaged so badly that normal cellular replication would cease. That means death for the organism. So, DNA needs the repair system to keep functioning but it is the DNA itself that tells the body how to produce the repair system. And we have only discovered this very recently. The 2015 Nobel Prize in Chemistry was awarded to Tomas Lindahl, Paul Modrich, and Aziz Sancar for their work on the DNA repair processes.
VK: So, what else do you want to cover for today?
RD: I want to give our listeners a very inexact model for DNA’s amazing information system. Imagine that you found a long sheet of paper that contained a lengthy list of ingredients for a meal. As you examined the list you realized that it was a list of ingredients for an amazing 7 course meal. At the bottom of the sheet the final line said “roll this into a 2 inch tube.” After you did so you found out that the letters that are now on the outside of the rolled sheet gave you all the steps in preparing the ingredients – the chopping, slicing, dicing, grating, etc. Then the final instruction said “hold near the stove.” And when you did so you found out that certain portions of the letters were now lit up and they gave you precise instructions for cooking the various ingredients like temperature, time, basting, stirring, etc. The last line of illuminated letters now said, “place near the completed dishes.” And when you did that you found out that different letters were now lit up which told you how to garnish, arrange, put on final toppings, and serve. You get the idea. No human technology would permit us to create an information storage system that sophisticated yet we’re asked to believe that random chance built a biological information system that contains hundreds of millions of ingredients. Our most elegant examples of technology and advanced design pale in comparison to the complexity present to every strand of DNA on the planet. Yet, the most amazing thing is that some people continue to insist that all of that sophisticated complexity could have arisen by chance.
VK: Well, all that has made me a little hungry but it does make the point. We’re familiar with single dimension information systems because that’s what we experience in our daily lives. Probably, with a lot of effort and planning, we might create a single system that has multiple dimensions of information. But those systems certainly wouldn’t run into the billions of letter or symbols that served multiple tasks simultaneously. The sophistication of DNA eludes us even now. The only reasonable explanation for DNA’s relentless display of information sophistication is because it was prepared and created by the Ultimate, Infinite Designer. It’s just a little bit silly to believe that unintelligent and undirected matter and energy could produce DNA when even the most intelligent scientists could not do so. But God could and that’s what our opening scripture from Hebrews tells us. This sounds like a time to go to God in prayer. Since our children are back in school and busily working their way through the academic year, today let’s listen to a prayer for all of them who could benefit from a little divine help with upcoming tests.
---- PRAYER FOR TAKING A TEST
VK: We’d like to remind our audience that a lot of our radio episodes are linked together in series of topics so if they missed any episodes or if they just want to hear one again, all of these episodes are available on your favorite podcast app. To find them just search on “Anchored by Truth by Crystal Sea Books.”
If you’d like to hear more, try out crystalseabooks.com where “We’re not perfect but our Boss is!”
(Bible Quote from the New Living Translation)
Hebrews, chapter 11, verse 3, New Living Translation

The human genome is amazingly complex (creation.com)
Four Dimensional Genome (creation.com)
Splicing and dicing the human genome (creation.com)
We are less than dust (creation.com)
Epigenetics challenges neo-Darwinism (creation.com)