"Our world is hurting and broken. People are divided, disconnected, and lonely. It’s time for a fresh reimagining of what it means to be the Church in our day." -New Wine Collective Website This new episode of The BETWEEN Podcast (the first that includes a video version!) features host Matt Mattson cherishing a sacred conversation with Eugene Kim, founder of New Wine Collective. Eugene is an ordained minister with over 25 years of experience in local church ministry. For 17 years, he played a pivotal role in growing a church from its early stages into a thriving, multi-location community. However, recognizing the need to rethink traditional models, Eugene discerned that it was time to step beyond the familiar and reimagine what it means to be and do “church" from the ground up. He left his pastoral role in 2020 to establish New Wine Collective—a church innovation think-tank and R&D lab.‍Since founding New Wine Collective, Eugene has been learning, ideating, and convening conversations about the evolving spiritual landscape and future of the Church. He is New Wine Collective's chief architect and synthesizer of ideas but still a pastor at heart who loves walking alongside people in their journeys. He is passionate about systemic change and designing new ways of being the Church that can help heal the world and give everyone a place to belong.‍Eugene grew up in Queens, NY and Seoul, Korea, and now lives in the Boston area. He loves hanging out with his three children, enjoying good food, cooking, and watching Korean dramas with his wife. Learn more about New Wine Collective: https://www.newwinecollective.org/

This episode features an amazing new author, Jenai Auman having a beautiful and sacred conversation with host, Matt Mattson. Her new book, Othered is for anyone who has felt left out or pushed out of the church, Othered is your invitation to find spiritual rest and belonging in a God who loves, restores, and blesses the outcast and the marginalized. Jenai Auman draws on her experience growing up as a biracial kid in the American South as well as working within toxic ministry environments to reveal a hopeful, trauma-informed way forward. Her book illuminates how hurt and betrayal in the church are longstanding problems that God neither sanctions nor tolerates. It offers holistic responses to the grief, anger, and trauma that come with being ostracized or oppressed by the church. And it shows how God provides shelter and provision in the midst of the wilderness. Buy the book: https://www.jenaiauman.com/otheredbook Learn More about Jenai: https://www.jenaiauman.com/about-jenai Subscribe to Jenai's Substack newsletter: https://jenaiauman.substack.com/

MaryB Safrit is a NYC-based relationship coach, an author, the host of the Found Family podcast, and she also makes and sells some pretty fun and empowering clothing and merch. She’s also your friendly neighborhood bisexual, recovering people-pleaser, and current goblin obsessed with all things relationship-building, hospitality, spirituality, and culture. (We talk about those obsessions in this episode). This episode is a truly sacred conversation about the idea of found family, about the idea of "church" in the modern world, about the idea of singleness within the weight of marriage culture, and about the idea of hospitality as a way to think about our cultures and organizations. Learn all about MaryB at https://www.marybsafrit.com/

When Paul wrote about being "DEEP-SPIRITED FRIENDS," well, we aren't exactly sure what he meant. But he might have been hinting at our longing for the full colors of our soul to be seen. He might have been encouraging us to feel all of the humanness that the people around us are feeling. Alongside them. Even if only for a while. This BONUS episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features host Matt Mattson sharing a story about a friend who helped him understand the technicolor potential that lies inside each of us. And the fine, fuzzy line between emotions and our spirit. Learn more about BETWEEN at https://between.church/ (please consider signing up for our free email list)Follow BETWEEN on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/between.church/Join the private BETWEEN community on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/groups/betweenchurchWatch our weekly BETWEEN 5(ish)-Minute Sermon at https://www.youtube.com/@betweenchurch

Our special guests on this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast are Ashlie Sanders and Emilie Call... and these two sisters are doing something really cool... Ashlie and Emilie are the hosts of a podcast called "That's Church." They're also both members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In fact, Ashlie has a separate big social media presence... she goes by "The Nuanced Mormon." Ashlie and Emilie's "That's Church" podcast features the two of them visiting and talking with people at different religious communities around Utah. They've visited with people all over their home state about traditions like Krishna Consciousness, Catholicism, several different flavors of Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism, Islam, and more. Their mission is to build bridges between many diverse religious communities. They're inspired by their grandparents' mixed-faith marriage. Grandma Maxine always said “there is good in all religions.” This example of love and mutual respect, inspires the hosts to reach beyond their LDS backgrounds and embrace different ideas, beliefs, and truths. They explore how their friends and neighbors experience spirituality and define church for them.

Catherine McNiel is our guest and WOW, what a powerful and sacred conversation this is about fear and faith. Catherine's newest book is titled, Fearing Bravely: Risking Love for our Neighbors, Strangers, and Enemies. This book is an amazing mirror into which we all might look to see how much we might have been unknowingly discipled in fear instead of love. Catherine is an author and speaker who lives in the Chicagoland area with her husband, where they care for their three kids and their enormous garden. Catherine has studied and taught Intercultural Studies and Theology, has an degree in Human Service Counseling, and is working on a Master of Divinity at North Park Theological Seminary. She has a couple of other books that came out before Fearing Bravely.... those books are also about the intermingling of spirituality and our ordinary lives... One is titled, All Shall Be Well: Awakening to God’s Presence in His Messy, Abundant World.... and another is called Long Days of Small Things: Motherhood as a Spiritual Discipline which was an ECPA New Author finalist. Catherine is a sought after writer and speaker; her work has been featured by numerous magazines, websites, churches, and ministries. Find all of Catherine's amazing contributions to the world, including her books, newsletter, and links to her social media at https://catherinemcniel.com/

This episode features Kristen Lavalley (author of "Even If He Doesn't") and host Matt Mattson diving deeply into the experiences of trauma and suffering that mark so much of our life path. Our guest has experienced so much -- a major faith crisis, witnessing a murder, the loss of a pregnancy, a traumatic birth experience with twins, and yet finds faith even when God doesn't show up in perfect ways. Kristen LaValley is a gifted writer whose words provide a refreshing perspective on faith and spirituality. Her writing resonates with those who carry tensions in their faith, offering insights that intersect doubt and belief, hope and suffering, beauty and heartache, complexity and simplicity. With a deep love for the Christian faith and a willingness to explore its complexities, Kristen's writing offers nuanced conversations that challenge readers to think deeply and wrestle with important questions. Kristen lives in Massachusetts with her husband Zach and their five children - Jonah, Emery, Anna, Chloe and Lydia. Website: https://www.kristenlavalley.com/Substack: https://kristenlavalley.substack.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kristen.lavalley

This new episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features a sacred conversation between host Matt Mattson and author Gregory Coles, Ph.D. about his book No Longer Strangers. Gregory Coles is a tangle of identities: born in upstate New York, raised on the Indonesian island of Java, and now working as a freelance author and scholar in Idaho's Treasure Valley. He holds a PhD in English from Penn State and has been in love with language since age 8, when he started learning his older brother’s SAT vocabulary words and reading Shakespeare’s Hamlet. Greg’s fiction and expository writing have been published by Penguin Random House and Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. His academic research on rhetorics of marginality (how language works in society for disadvantaged groups) has appeared in College English and Rhetorica and in an edited collection from Cambridge University Press. His two memoirs, Single, Gay, Christian and No Longer Strangers, have earned awards that include a Foreword INDIES Award Finalist and an InterVarsity Press Readers' Choice Award. His newest book, a novel exploring the power of language to shape human thought, is The Limits of My World. FacebookInstagramTwitterWebsite

Whoa. Near Death Experiences is new territory for our podcast, and what a cool conversation this was. Host Matt Mattson shares a sacred conversation with Rev. Stephanie Chase Bradbury about the moments when people seem to transcend beyond our earthly realm and live to tell about it. The Reverend Stephanie Chase Bradbury is a graduate of Yale Divinity School, ordained an Episcopal Priest for 28 years, and serves a congregation in Massachusetts. She is a wife, mother, and grandmother. She is drawn to the thin shimmer between matter and spirit, and how life in this world is affected by our connection to the next. She believes that every human being, every part of the cosmos, is profoundly precious to God. No exceptions. To that end she has a newsletter entitled “Jesus and the Enchanted Cosmos.” She also founded and hosts two support groups for Christians who have had Near-Death and other Transcendent Experiences, and regularly speaks at the conferences of the International Association for Near-Death Studies. In 2022 she published a book of sermons entitled, “Holy Incarnation! God Said What?” While grounded in the Christian tradition, Stephanie looks for truth beyond as well. Rev. Stephanie's Substack: https://revstephaniecbradbury.substack.com/

Enjoy this short BONUS episode of The BETWEEN Podcast featuring host, Matt Mattson telling you the secrets of the alternate universes he has discovered (and some that he learned about from people on social media). These alternate universes are "thin places." They are places where the rules of social engagement are morphed. They are places where it is incredibly easy to feel God in the presence of others. Do you know of any alternate universes like the ones described in this episode? Visit https://between.church/ to learn all about our global, digital, highly inclusive faith community. Follow us on social media, watch our weekly YouTube videos, and become a part of our community. Be sure to sign up for our mailing list.

This episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features a gentle and beautiful conversation between host Matt Mattson and our special guest, Sarah Westfall. What if BELONGING isn't something to attain, but instead is someone to become? How could faith offer a kind of belonging that could transform us all into "people of welcome"? Sarah E. Westfall is a writer, speaker, and host of the Human Together podcast. She has a brand new book out titled, The Way of Belonging: Reimagining Who We Are and How We Relate. Her previous work includes serving as director of community for online writing groups and as a student development professional on college campuses. She has been published in RELEVANT, Fathom Mag, and (in)courage. Sarah lives in Indiana with her husband, Ben, and four sons. Sarah's website: https://www.sarahewestfall.com/Sarah's Substack: https://sarahewestfall.substack.com/Sarah's podcast: https://www.sarahewestfall.com/human-togetherSarah's social media: https://www.instagram.com/sarah_westfall/

What if loneliness isn't the boogeyman we've made it out to be? What if in our pursuit of belonging we skipped self-worth and it has left us feeling inauthentic? What if God showed up in a hotel lobby, would you recognize God? This episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features a wonderfully sacred conversation between host Matt Mattson and our special guest, Dr. Kelly Flanagan. Dr. Kelly Flanagan is an author, speaker, relationship coach, and licensed clinical psychologist. He writes regularly at drkellyflanagan.substack.com. His writing has been featured in Reader's Digest, Christianity Today, and The 5 Love Languages, and he has appeared on the TODAY Show with his daughter. Kelly’s two non-fiction books—Loveable and True Companions—both debuted as a #1 New Releases in Interpersonal Relations on Amazon. His first novel, The Unhiding of Elijah Campbell was an ECPA bestseller and has won multiple literary awards. Kelly is married to another clinical psychologist named Kelly, and they have three children who are twenty, sixteen, and fourteen years old. They live in a small town outside of Chicago. Kelly's website: https://drkellyflanagan.com/Kelly's Substack: https://drkellyflanagan.substack.com/

Lizz Enns Petters and Esther Joy Goetz are our special guests on this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast. Lizz and Esther host The Deconstructing Mamas Podcast and... If you are trying to figure out how to navigate the tricky tightrope of parenting while you have questions, doubts and wonderings about your spiritual journey, their podcast is for you (and so is this episode of our podcast!) Lizz Enns Petters is a passionate voice for so many people out there... she encourages her readers and listeners around the themes of MOTHERHOOD, MENTAL HEALTH, and MINDFUL CHRISTIANITY. Her father is biblical scholar Pete Enns and she's a chip off the old block (as they say). Lizz is deeply passionate about creating a space for spiritual misfits so that they can find a sense of safety and belonging on their faith journeys... and she's especially passionate about empowering young moms and parents who are doing the hard work of healing themselves while raising kids. Lizz has young kids of her own and so much of her fantastic online content is about the exciting, beautiful, sometimes difficult, and often hilarious life of a mother with little ones... Lizz was diagnosed with anxiety, OCD, and a panic disorder at a young age and those diagnoses have been a big part of her life. Esther Joy Goetz was born and grew up as an evangelical missionary kid ... Esther has written that her parents' mission was to keep the people they encountered in war-torn Ethiopia from going to Hell. She lives in rural New Jersey and loves the outdoors. Esther's kids are grown now and she has a grandson and a granddaughter on the way. She has a fierce passion for helping people uncover what's been hidden, discover what's been lost, recover what's been wounded in their lives, and know and love their truest and most healed selves. She does this through her books, her spiritual direction practice, the podcast that she shares with Lizz, and hopefully just by being a sanctuary (a safe place) for any and all who come across her path. LEARN MORE Deconstructing Mamas WebsiteLizz Enns Petter's WebsiteEsther Joy Goetz's WebsiteLizz's BETWEEN 5(ish)-Minute SermonEsther's BETWEEN 5(ish)-Minute Sermon

This episode features host Matt Mattson and special guest, Nicole Mason. This slightly longer and deeply sacred episode is somehow about the future of faith communities, the heavy weight carried by so many women within the context of religious institutions, innovative church life, and really so much more... Nicole Mason is a church planter. She is a writer. She is an innovative Christian. She spent 7 years in vocational ministry within complementarian spaces -- and then left that world. She now leads a non-traditional, non-Sunday-centric church community in Houston, Texas. Read Nicole's blog here: https://nicolemason.substack.comFollow Nicole on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_nicolemason_/Follow Nicole on Threads: https://www.threads.net/@_nicolemason_

What is a mystic? Can you be one? Is contemplative prayer something that might bring us closer to each other? Can a dirty diaper be a sacred thing? Keith Kristich joins host Matt Mattson on this very contemplative episode of The BETWEEN Podcast. Keith Kristich is a writer, a retreat leader, a contemplative, a mystic... and the founder of the online contemplative community called Closer Than Breath. His mission is to help people unlearn rigid religion, reimagine what is divine, and see God everywhere. Keith's work revolves around: deconstructing rigid religionpractical mysticism andcontemplative practice Specifically, he teaches centering prayer as a way of embodying the way of unknowing and surrender. He also makes some really cool digital art that helps people understand the divine in new and beautiful ways. Subscribe to his newsletter here: https://keithkristich.com/newsletter/ Keith's website: https://keithkristich.com/Closer Than Breath: https://closerthanbreath.com/Follow Keith on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/keithkristich/Closer Than Breath on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CloserThanBreath/

Our special guest Rev. Lindsey Turner (They/Them) joins host Matt Mattson on this celestial episode of The BETWEEN Podcast. In 2018, Reverend Lindsey Turner who was a pastor at a church... was forced out of that church. In one swift and painful moment, Lindsey lost the house, career, and community they had built. After learning that Lindsey had offered a home to a young adult who was both trans and housing-insecure, a small group of church leaders demanded Lindsey's resignation in secret. Lindsey, who is also known as Bad Pastor, is a consulting astrologer, community minister, and ritual arts specialist. They work at the intersections of liberationist theology, traditional astrology, and time magic. Lindsey offers one-on-one consultations and spiritual accompaniment, teaches theology-astrology classes, guides group development workshops, and hosts an online community called "Starpals," for people who find themselves at the intersections of queer/trans and Christian/post-Christian identity. Lindsey also travels around the country, speaking on ritual theory and praxis for chaplains and other faith leaders. Learn all about Lindsey at https://badpastor.me/ and follow Lindsey on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/bad.pastor/

We're so excited to feature Sarah Bessey, author of Field Notes For The Wilderness: Practices for an Evolving Faith on this episode of The BETWEEN Podcast. Listen in as host Matt Mattson and Sarah Bessey discuss faith deconstruction, reconstruction, and things that are helpful if you find yourself wandering out there in a spiritual wilderness. Sarah Bessey is the author of the popular and critically acclaimed books, Out of Sorts: Making Peace with an Evolving Faith, Jesus Feminist, and Miracles and Other Reasonable Things. This episode focuses on her newest book, Field Notes for The Wilderness. She is a sought-after speaker at churches, conferences, and universities all around the world. Sarah is also the cocurator and cohost of the annual Evolving Faith Conference and she serves as President of the Board for Heartline Ministries in Haiti. Sarah lives in Calgary with her husband and their children. Visit Sarah's website (buy her books, find her social media accounts, and sign up for her Substack newsletter!) Join the Evolving Faith Community (discussed in this episode)

This episode of The BETWEEN Podcast features host Matt Mattson jumping into the "MESS" with special guest, Melissa Neeb. They discuss faith, deconstruction, parenting, mental health, addiction, and public speaking -- all within the context of building sacred moments of human connection in our lives. S Melissa gives some powerful advice about showing up and creating "honest rooms" that could be transformative for listeners trying to bring more meaningful (and maybe even holy) connection into their lives. You can find Melissa at the following: Faith in The Mess ("love big, live kind") Instagram: @faith_in_the_mess Facebook: Faith in the Mess by Melissa Neeb Never Empty Nest (how to mom teens) Instagram: @never_empty_nest Facebook: Never Empty Nest by Melissa Neeb

Join host Matt Mattson and special guest Pastor Justin Spurlock as they take a deep dive into the "unofficial sacrament of conversation." They discuss whether or not the "space between people" is actually sacred, they explore the importance of BELONGING in-depth, they talk about the challenges of faith-related language, and they share stories in an authentic exchange of real sacred conversation. Learn more about BETWEEN at ⁠our website⁠ and subscribe to our ⁠YouTube channel⁠. Don't forget to ⁠follow our Instagram account⁠ for daily prayers and fun content.

Today's guest on The BETWEEN Podcast is Rev. Nathan Albert (he/him). Nathan is a professional actor turned university chaplain, author, and religious pluralist. He seeks to be a disruptor of the dominant, a multifaceted theologian, a champion of religious diversity, and a multiple religious participant who promotes interreligious learning. As a chaplain, his focus is interreligious learning, spiritual engagement, and religious difference. He earned a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Musical Theatre Performance, a Master of Divinity, a Certificate in Spiritual Transformation, and is currently working on a Doctor of Ministry in Interreligious Chaplaincy focusing his research on the ways chaplains disrupt Christian hegemony and supremacy. Nathan is also an avid meditator, lover of cities, maintains a plant-based diet, and is a passionate user of the Oxford comma. Nathan is the author of the book, EMBRACING LOVE: My Journey To Hugging a Man in His Underwear. At the Chicago Pride Parade, Nathan Albert stood with his friends bearing signs of apology on behalf of Christians who had failed to represent Christ’s love to the LGBTQ community. Little did he know that millions around the world would soon see him captured in an iconic viral photograph and read his blog about hugging a man in his underwear. Embracing Love is the story behind that photograph, the story of a musical theatre actor turned pastor whose deep desire is that the Gospel be seen, heard, and felt by the LGBTQ community in every tangible way. Through personal stories, pastoral encounters, a gospel-centric church model, a comparison of approaches to the biblical texts on homosexuality, and a fervent call to unity among Christians, Nathan Albert invites readers past the intimidation of controversy for the sake of embracing people with the love of the Divine. Find Nathan online at https://nathanalbert.com/