Filmmaker Liz Nord recommends documentaries

25-12-2022 • 1 hr 17 mins

New York-based filmmaker Liz Nord joined Leah to run down a list of documentaries for watching during winter break. Liz also talked to Leah about how she became a documentary filmmaker and obsessed with the art form.

Follow Liz online to find out when her documentary is streaming.

Show Notes

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah.

Wash your hands, wear your mask, get your booster and keep enjoying your favorite thing.

Liz Nord Documentaries_mixdown

1:17:42

SPEAKERS

Announcer, Leah Jones, Liz Nord

Liz Nord 00:00

Hi, my name is Liz Nord, and my Favorite Things are documentary films.

Announcer 00:05

Welcome to the Finding Favorites Podcast where we explore your favorite things without using an algorithm. Here's your host, Leah Jones.

Leah Jones 00:18

Hello, and welcome to Finding Favorites. I'm your host, Leah Jones. And this is the podcast where we learn about people's favorite things without using an algorithm. I'm so excited this afternoon I am with one of my OG go into Israel friends. I'm here today with Liz Nord. She is an Executive Producer, who started in the news and documentaries. She makes documentaries, podcasts, multimedia online content. Most recently, Liz worked at Sundance, and she's here today with us on finding favorites. Liz, how are you?

Liz Nord 00:58

Hi, Leah Jones. I'm so excited to be here.

Leah Jones 01:01

It's so good to be catching up with you. I was so thrilled when you send me your email. I'm like, How have I not had Liz on yet? You had a podcast before almost anyone I knew. And yeah, you I hadn't I didn't ask you to be on. That's on me.

Liz Nord 01:17

Well, yeah. So that your listeners know I literally I asked, I requested to be on the podcast. I'm a fan of both Leah and of the podcast. And I was like, I have favorite things. So here we are.

Leah Jones 01:32

I'm so happy. So we were doing a little catching up before I hit record. And just reflecting a little bit we met in I think the summer of 2007 at a conference in Israel. Is that right? Is it like did you go in 2007?

Liz Nord 01:48

Did you know I think I was like the year after you. It might have been 2008. So it's been a while.

Leah Jones 01:57

And at the time, your documentary age, were you still working on Jericho’s Echo in 2008? Or was it just

Liz Nord 02:05

No it has been out in world, which I think is why I was invited to this conference with Jewish artists and Jewish innovators people creating Jewish things in the world. And my film Jericho’s Echo was not specifically Jewish, but it was about Israeli punk rockers. And so it fit the bill.

Leah Jones 02:27

Yeah. So we met then we see each other at conferences. We see each other at conferences, weddings, funeral when

Liz Nord 02:38

Your dad has art shows in New York.

Leah Jones 02:40

When my dad has art shows in New York. Yes. We've got to get you guys out to Chicago.

Liz Nord 02:47

Absolutely. I really want to go to the Chicago Museum is the contemporary art museum. The one that's right downtown. I've been once before and I loved it so much.

Leah Jones 02:57

The Art Institute of Chicago, which is the mass of everything one.

Liz Nord 03:01

Like near the bean.

Leah Jones 03:05

And then there's also a Museum of Contemporary Art, which is stunning. But the Art Institute of Chicago is the one it's got, I always just got everything.

Liz Nord 03:18

Yeah, I was amazed by that museum. And I live in New York, it's not like I don't have access to culture. But yeah, love to come back. Also good food.

Leah Jones 03:26

We've got very good food in Chicago.

Liz Nord 03:29

Just like this season. Like coming in spring.

Leah Jones 03:33

Yeah. No, don't come in the winter. Don't come in the winter. It's a great spring summer visit, absolutely. No spoilers but we're going to be talking documentaries. But I'm curious as we head into winter, and this will most likely be a Christmas episode. Do you have any winter repeat movies? Like any winter traditions that that are movie related?

Liz Nord 04:01

Oh, I love that question. I mean, winter is like primetime for movies. And obviously often like holiday stuff comes out on the big screen, which I will say that everything, all the recommendations I'm going to make today I know we're gonna get to talk about some films, I tried to find things that are very contemporary and all available on streaming. But I still believe in person in theater, film going experience, especially for the blockbusters. So I usually do try to get to some of the like ones that come out between Thanksgiving and Christmas every year to have that communal big screen, big audio experience. So this year, it was Wakanda Forever, the New Black Panther film and I feel like the Black Panther cannon as it grows will be an annual viewing because they're just so lush, and beautiful. They're not really your typical comic book movies and they have kind of a deeper meaning. But I love all that stuff. And I will say that the Harry Potter films always make a good seasonal, you can watch several. They all have, almost all of them have a Christmas scene or a winter season because they go through the school year. So those are always fun. And I'm a total Star Wars geek. So I'll revisit the films. Have to say not like loving all the series so much, even though I'm excited that they exist in the world. But I will always go back to the films, especially the originals.

Leah Jones 05:38

Yeah. I'll tell you. I saw Wakanda Forever a couple weeks ago. And I went and saw it in 4DX. Have you done that?

Liz Nord 05:52

What even is that?

Leah Jones 05:54

So 3D, right, three dimensions. 4D fourth dimension. It's the fourth-dimension experience. The chair is a roller coaster. Every four chairs are connected. And they tilt forward and back side-to-side. They vibrate. There's like a fan behind you. So if there's a breeze going through the jungle, it's a little breeze on your neck. If a bullet goes by your face, they do this like really quick puff of air past your neck. So you feel the bullet go by. I went with my friend Ronnie, we had never gone before. We really didn't look into too much what 4DX was about. And we laughed hysterically through the whole movie, but the chairs….

Liz Nord 06:44

I feel like I'd be laughing the whole time. I wouldn't even be able to like..

Leah Jones 06:49

Don't do for the extra movie you want to emotionally connect to. So we felt very self-conscious being two white people in the middle of Black Panther : Wakanda Forever in Chicago as our chairs kept jolting us.

Liz Nord 07:06

Oh my god, you couldn't have been the only one’s, people must have been laughing.

Leah Jones 07:09

Luckily, it was a Tuesday or Thursday night. And it was it was there were only 10 of us maybe in the theater. And so we were all having our reactions. But I am very excited to see Avatar in 4DX themselves.

Liz Nord 07:24

That sounds like a good move for Avatar. For people that haven't seen Wakanda Forever is surprisingly emotional for a comic movie. Particularly because it's lead. The original Black Panther, Chadwick Boseman, passed away between the first and second films and they honor him and his contribution to the film's right from the beginning. I mean, people in the theater when I thought were crying,

Leah Jones 07:52

Right, which is the appropriate emotion. But as his sister walks through the lab, and that first scene and your chair goes kaboom, kaboom with her steps. And your chair is moving with her steps. And you just start laughing from then. And it's not a laughing scene.

Liz Nord 08:12

No, I also feel not a great situation to have like popcorn on your lap.

Leah Jones 08:18

No, we did not. Thankfully, we did not get popcorn. There were people behind us who had like a soda. And I'm not kidding when I say I had to hold on for dear life to not get thrown out of the chairs at times.

Liz Nord 08:32

Oh my god. I don’t think, that's for me.

Leah Jones 08:36

I wish they would make like a 45-minute 4DX experience that was Star Wars battles.

Liz Nord 08:47

Like made for it that makes more sense. How they used to make films for the IMAX and they were so incredible in that environment. Now they just show regular films on IMAX, which always feels kind of weird to me.

Leah Jones 08:59

Yeah. So I'm not looking forward. That's how we're gonna see Avatar because otherwise I don't really care about seeing Avatar. But I have to say the 3D trailer for it before Wakanda Forever, it was a stunning use of 3D.

Liz Nord 09:16

I mean, that sounds pretty cool. And it's funny because like, we're talking about documentaries today. So I'm thinking about, what does this mean for a documentary? And I think what the documentaries that I really love are immersive, what they call immersive when you find yourself in this other world. But I don't know that like in a doc, you'd want to be as immersed as a 4DX experience. It's a funny to think about.

Leah Jones 09:42

I need more people to go, so I can talk to more people about how insane… I mean, you know the big fight on top of the ship in Wakanda Forever. Your chair punches you in the back. As they're like fighting on top, feeling fists in your back.

Liz Nord 10:00

Yeah, I feel like goodbye unless it's like a massage. But you know…

Leah Jones 10:04

It's more like a sharper image massage chair, but it's happening as punches are landing on the screen.

Liz Nord 10:13

Oh my gosh.

Leah Jones 10:15

So I need more people to go talk to me about this ridiculous. I don't think you need a chair that moves as a reason to go to the theater. I think you need to be with people. Like I think the value of…

Liz Nord 10:31

I like the comfy chairs now that we back there's a lot to be said for it.

Leah Jones 10:38

Yeah. I mean, I went and saw Jackass Forever in theaters twice. Just to make sure I see it but with people,

Liz Nord 10:46

I would like to maybe unpack that with you another time.

Leah Jones 10:48

Yeah. What I'll say about Jackass is that, it is possibly one of the greatest documentaries about male friendship ever made. How about that?

Liz Nord 10:59

That is not what I ever would have expected you to say so. I'm color me intrigued!

Leah Jones 11:03

That they are, I think it's especially Jackass Forever because at this point, they've been doing it for 20 years. Everyone involved in the fourth movie, the Jackass guys, if they weren't sober, they weren't invited back like band's not there because bands not sober. And they've supported each other through sobriety, and through finding other businesses, through starting families. And, and there's, I mean, there are there's drinking on it because there's younger people. But there's really you don't often see on film, men who have been friends with each other for 20 years, working and laughing together, punching each other in the nuts and hugging it out. Like I felt like it was a really positive portrayal of an evolved male friendship.

Liz Nord 12:05

That is really cool. I love hearing that. And like note to self, definitely don't see that movie in 4DX.

Leah Jones 12:14

Absolutely not.

Liz Nord 12:15

Not my nuts punched?

Leah Jones 12:18

No. So when you come to Chicago, I'll take you to a movie at the music box. Which is one of our house. Amazing theaters still has an organ player, so there's organs. Organ player before the Saturday matinees. And I went, it's 700 people in the house. So I went there sold out for RRR.

Liz Nord 12:43

Oh, I've heard such good things about that movie. It's like on the list. It’s on my Winter list.

Leah Jones 12:49

Yeah. So I think it was the most incredible, probably live theater experience I've ever had in my whole life.

Liz Nord 12:58

Wow. Because people were so into it.

Leah Jones 13:01

People were cheering, clapping. I would say that and everything everywhere all at once. Which I also saw in a big theater sold out.

Liz Nord 13:10

That was a great one to see in the theater. So wild. Those guys, the Daniels, the filmmakers are really interesting. I interviewed them once. I used to run a website called No Film School, like by filmmakers, for filmmakers, and so interviewed lots of filmmakers. And those guys, the directors are these kind of young goofy guys. And they've done amazing work. Always pushing the envelope like they did with this film. And yeah, it's always nice when filmmakers who seem good people are also doing well in the world, and their films are getting traction.

Leah Jones 13:48

Yeah, I'm glad to see that one getting the nominations. I think it deserved.

Liz Nord 13:53

Also, like Michelle Yeoh, she's just so rad. And the fact that she's now having big sort of second coming, even though she's been in the industry for what, like 40 years. Yeah, I mean, what a badass. I love her.

Leah Jones 14:06

Yeah, she's phenomenal. Yeah, I think our winter film traditions. Well, I'm Jewish. I'm the only converted, so my family is not Jewish. So when we go to my sister's home for Christmas, we watch Bad Santa, we watch elf Christmas vacation.

Liz Nord 14:31

I mean, I've seen them all. When you grow up Jewish in this country, you can't avoid Christmas. And some of them are really fun. I love I have a weak spot for Emmet Otter’s Jug-Band Christmas.

Leah Jones 14:41

Yes. Yeah.

Liz Nord 14:43

I love Muppets.

Leah Jones 14:44

Yeah. And then my sister will play, she's gotten a really good Pandora station of like jazzy Christmas tune.

Liz Nord 14:54

Oh, can you send that to me?

Leah Jones 14:56

I will. Yeah.

Liz Nord 14:57

Do you love Christmas music as well? Much of what It was written by Jews. There's a documentary about it.

Leah Jones 15:02

Oh!

Leah Jones 15:16

Okay, Liz, as promised, we're here to talk about documentaries. But I wanted, and I know you have lots of great recommendations, which I am so excited for. But my first question is why documentaries? Do you remember seeing your first documentary? Or do you remember the first documentary that really punched you in the gut? And you're like, I got to know more about this?

Liz Nord 15:45

Oh, that's such a great question. I think like most people, although documentaries are much more prominent and available on all the streamers now. When I was a kid, I never would have told you, Oh, I want to grow up and go into documentary because I thought documentaries were historical, boring things on PBS, or like nature docs, which are fun to watch, but not a career path for me. And then it's just like true crime, none of that really appealed to me. But the idea of documentary filmmaking and filmmaking was always exciting. Or actually, the idea of filmmaking itself was exciting. And that's what I originally went to undergrad for. I ended up leaving that major, and funnily enough, like I said, later, running a website called No Film School, and I'm still No Film School. But it was a strong interest. And then I ended up becoming a graphic designer, and then came back to filmmaking. But part of what got me back to it was that I am one of those people that other people just talk to, like strangers all the time, tell me their stories. So there was this one moment, I remember pretty clearly on the bus in San Francisco, where I used to live and where I started my doc career. I was in my early 20s and this woman on the bus who I did not make eye contact with, really had no reason to talk to me. But sat next to me and started telling me in detail about her recent divorce. I thought, I need to do something with this. This happens to me all the time, enough that I should go some direction. I mean, clearly, there's some kind of calling, Even when I'm not trying, people are divulging their lives to me. So yeah, I guess I could have gone toward like sociology or therapy, psychiatry. But I was already in the media making business. And it was wait a minute what makes sense. Let’s put all this together. Let people talk to me. I'll just turn on a camera. And that's kind of really how I became a documentary filmmaker. And of course, once I started learning more about the practice, I also watched tons of films, and learned, Oh, my God, there's this whole massive world of independent documentary films that I have not had much access to previously. And I was like, oh, this is something really different! These are emotionally resonant, relevant, beautiful films that aren't formulaic historical docs, and I don't need to be dissing historical docs. I actually think, especially now, there's historical docs or docs that cover historical topics that are really fascinating. But I think it's not this male narrator are telling you, blah… blah… blah… you feel like your history class.

Leah Jones 18:51

I would say that women of our age, we're women in our40s.

Liz Nord 18:57

Wow, I didn't know you were going to be divulging our age.

Leah Jones 19:03

Yeah, unless we are plus or minus 10 years.

Liz Nord 19:06

Yes. Right. Yep. Women in are 30s or 40s.

Leah Jones 19:10

As women in are 40s. We were primed for that stretch of PBS where a documentary was the Ken Burns multipart sepia tone documentary.

Liz Nord 19:24

100%. That's what I'm talking about.

Leah Jones 19:28

And that's all we knew . So absolutely. Like once you learn there's more than Ken Burns, there's a whole world of more than him.

Liz Nord 19:36

A massive world. And so people who might not be as familiar with the field, understand kind of generally what I'm talking about is that when I say an independent film. There's this independent space where an independent filmmaker, meaning they're not necessarily tied to a studio, or anything like that. They've raised their own money or they've gotten financing outside of a streamer or studio so that they can follow their own whims and storytelling instincts. That's where a lot of films that I'm interested in, the people that I cover and work with, and promote and everything. But that's the space that we live in. And to go back to your other questions. So I started exploring the field, I took a couple of classes in San Francisco, at a place that no longer exists. But it was a wonderful organization called the Film Arts Foundation, where you could just show up and learn to use a camera without having to go to graduate school or anything. I started attending, getting involved in the local film scene in San Francisco, which was pretty robust at the time, and starting to attend the festivals. And a couple that do stand out in those early years, in terms of film experiences, where I was like, I want to do this. One was at the San Francisco Jewish Film Festival, probably in 2004ish. I made my first film in 2005. There was a film called Trembling Before God, which someone who's now a good friend Sandy Loski made and was pivotal doc about Orthodox Jews who are gay, coming out and/or figuring out how to navigate their worlds where that wasn't as acceptable of a lifestyle or wasn't acceptable at all. And I saw the film live with an audience at the San Francisco Jewish Film Festival. And in the film, itself one of the characters face is blurred, you can't see them, because it would be dangerous or uncomfortable. They couldn't really be on film recognizably. So we saw the film, it was really moving. And then that character, came out on stage first time publicly, showing her face and saying, I'm gay. And the audience went freaking bananas, understandably. And it was so moving. And so like, oh, this is what a documentary can be and can do. And I want to be part of that.

Leah Jones 22:07

And that it can be contemporary. It can be things of the moment, and not just 100 plus years ago, piecing together through archival footage,

Liz Nord 22:19

And that film followed these it's protagonists in their daily life, it's very present, very of the moment. So that was really cool. And other one was at South by Southwest, which became kind of my annual pilgrimage after the first year I went, which probably was 2005ish. And then I went 10, or somewhere between 10 and 15 more years after that. But the first year I was like this is so cool! Because I went and declared, I'm a filmmaker. I went to this film festival, film and media and everything festival and I was like, I too am a filmmaker. And I saw the premiere of Morgan Spurlock Super Size Me. I mean, the film is fine. It's debatable. People love it, they hate it. That festival happens in Austin, Texas. The crowds are super enthusiastic. They screen at this really cool movie theater called the Alamo Drafthouse that serves beer and everything while you're watching the films. And again the beauty of going to film festivals is that often the filmmaker is there. So saw the film, Morgan Spurlock shows up. Since then he's become very famous. But this was his first documentary of note. Again, audience was so wild. And that Austin crowd is so enthusiastic. And I just thought, wasn't as much about the content of the film. But I was like, oh, this is the rock star I want to be. I don't want to be I've never aspired to be in a band or whatever. But that's the Rockstar, I want to be. The one that shows their film to this rapidly enthusiastic crowd and gets to talk about it. And that film will then live on and have its own life and trajectory and influence in the world. That was super exciting to me.

Leah Jones 24:11

Wow. Those are two…. Somebody's ringing my doorbell.

Liz Nord 24:20

Like I heard a doorbell. Okay, so you were saying those are two, we talked about Super Size Me for that. And you said those are two really?

Leah Jones 24:30

Yeah. And then the doorbell rang and my brain went.. boom! I'm just thinking about I have also gotten to meet Sandy from Trembling Before God. I think I met him at maybe at the conversation. So we're Facebook friends, we're acquaintances, we're not friends. But certainly that piece resonated through the Jewish community continues to resonate. And then Morgan Spurlock Super Size Me, it was such a massive global sensation.

Liz Nord 25:02

That's one of the ones that kind of put more modern documentaries on the map.

Leah Jones 25:05

Yeah. There's still a role for sometimes investigative, sometimes experiential, documentary making. But I don't know, I just love that those were theater experiences for you.

Liz Nord 25:24

Yeah. And also what I thought you were gonna say, when you said, when you were coming to films is that I think it also kind of proves my point, even though I do want to talk about more modern films. But just like those are part of a modern wave. And they're two totally different films in tone, in style and structure. And neither of them is what one might have historically expected when they heard the word documentary.

Leah Jones 25:48

So you go to South by Southwest, you stake your claim, I am a filmmaker. And then you make your first you are your first director, the first producer. Are you like on the crew have a document I know. I said, I wasn't gonna make you talk about your career the whole time. But I guess I've never gotten to ask you some of these questions. We've known each other so long, but I've never said, because I remember you literally carrying a camera. Wasn't the exact Zachary Tim, was he your camera guy on one of your Jerusalem movies?

Liz Nord 26:29

Oh, no, we never worked together. But we had people in common. And when I moved to New York, he was one of the first people that helped me get into the New York Film Scene as part of a collective called the Film Shop. But I don't think that's that relevant. But I was filming in Jerusalem, another project in Jerusalem, a few years later when we might have seen each other at the Union. So early in my career, I was taking those classes in San Francisco, I decided instead of going to grad school, I would buy a camera and make myself into a filmmaker. I always tell people this, because there's so much about believing and putting out there that you are doing this thing, whatever it is and echo have created a lot. And at that South by Southwest, I had already started making Derrick Rose Echo. So I really was in the process of making a film, but I made myself a business card. We used to do that. And it said, Liz Nord Filmmaker, and as soon as I put it on paper, and told people, it felt real and it became more real which is pretty cool. And I still need to remind myself of that. Sometimes 20 years into my career, I still get impostor syndrome. It happens. But when I really started before making a feature documentary, I was doing what is called Video Activism. So kind of documenting stuff that is happening in the community, was sort of an activist bent. And around that time was when the Iraq war was starting. And I lived in San Francisco, which is a very progressive place. And so we were doing, I was part of a group called Street Level TV. And we had a show on the cable access in San Francisco. I would go and film Iraq war protests, and things of that nature. So I started out pretty scrappy right out there, literally in the streets.

Leah Jones 28:33

I really didn’t know that. That's so cool.

Liz Nord 28:37

It was cool. Looking back on it. Yeah, it was a moment for sure. I think what's important to notice that it just wasn't so common then. You don't really need video activists anymore because everybody has a camera and is documenting whatever is going on around them. Thank goodness that, for example, police brutality has now come much more to light because people with cell phones have just exposed that. But at that time, cell phones didn't even have video cameras. It's amazing, because not that long ago. But so it took people like us to actually go out there with cameras and make sure to be noting this stuff.

Leah Jones 29:22

It was really important. Because everybody couldn't document. It's wild. Things have changed so much.

Liz Nord 29:31

And that's part of what's been so exciting about being in this field, is that it has just changed so rapidly and documentaries have become so much more ubiquitous and your listeners can go see all sorts of fascinating stuff that wasn't really out there before. If you didn't go to the art house or you weren't part of an educational institution that had a DVD. It's amazing.

Leah Jones 29:58

So I want to ask you about if you're going to a film festival, which I know you often do. How are you approaching the documentary slate? Assuming you're not a judge, are you looking for topics that you like? Are you looking for filmmakers you've heard of? How do you start to prioritize a festival slate?

Liz Nord 30:23

Well, that's a great question because I've been as an audience, and I've also been as press. And so it really had to study the programs and figure that out, how to navigate all that. But when I'm not going as press which of course, most people wouldn't be going, I actually love to be surprised. SAnd that's one of the amazing things, especially going to a festival like Sundance. Because Sundance happens in January. And that means eat, of course, it's the head of the year, it's also the head of the film gear. And it requires not all festivals do of course, but Sundance requires that you're having your films premiere. So that means if your film has played anywhere else, but at least in North America, it wouldn't be eligible for Sundance. So that means as audiences, you have this real gift of going to see films that you just haven't heard much about yet. And so I usually do a combination of at this point, I know so many filmmakers, which is another just great privilege. So I'll try to see films by people I know and to support them. And sometimes I just go blind, whatever let's just give this a shot. That's why we're here. And that's always really fun. And then I like to kind of look outside the box. There are some films that you know when you go to a festival are going to have distribution, or they're already, for example, a Netflix film. So you know it's going to be on Netflix, or it's such a big-name director that it'll definitely get out there to the public. So often look for the films by say a first-time filmmaker or just something slightly less obscure or that hasn't secured distribution yet. So that I can make sure to try to see that film when I get the chance.

Leah Jones 32:23

Because you're trying to see the things that you might not have another opportunity in theater to see.

Liz Nord 32:30

That's right. And while this whole conversation might not feel like super relevant to everyone because you can't necessarily go to film festivals, I would highly recommend that people seek out festivals in their area. Because film festivals are so ubiquitous now that there's often small local film festivals, almost everywhere. And especially because of the pandemic, a lot of the big festivals are now making some of the films available streaming. So Sundance this year, which is coming up in January, you can buy tickets to some of the premieres online, which is pretty freaking cool. If you're sitting in Idaho and would never get yourself to Sundance actually, it isn't that far from Sundance. But if you're sitting in Maine, and I couldn't get yourself to Sundance or didn't have really a reason to go to Sundance, you can see some of these films, which I think is really one of the silver linings, I guess of the pandemic. Obviously, I rather would have not had the pandemic but this is one of those outgrowths that is positive.

Leah Jones 33:34

Yeah, that some things have become more accessible.

Liz Nord 33:40

Yes, and literally more accessible. For example, Sundance again, never did closed captioning on the live screenings. So it cut out a whole audience that required a deaf audience, for example, that would require closed captioning. And now you can stream with closed captioning for premiere, which is pretty special.

Leah Jones 34:02

That is really special. Wow!

Leah Jones 34:17

Well, let's get into some of your recommendations. I know you've been working on the list. So when you started thinking about, I want to tell people to watch these documentaries. How do you categorize documentaries? Are you like these are shorts, these are long, these are men, these are like, how do you categorize it? Or are you just this is what I'm loving right now.

Liz Nord 34:45

That is a great question. I'm a category person, a kind of list organizing person. I guess that comes from my producing background. So I do categorize and I will say I'm glad you brought up shorts because I did not really include shorts on this list. Let me tell you, this is finding favorites right, so it's so hard to find my favorites. Guys I've seen like 9 billion documentaries and so already narrowing down Long's as I love that you say Long's, I think the appropriate term is feature length but long is awesome. I'm used to it from now on. So my list that I really came up with to talk about today are Long's, but I think shorts are a really fun way to get into doc's if you're listening to this, and you're, oh, yeah, I was one of those people that thought documentaries we're boring. Shorts are such a great way in and I really actually think it's kind of the golden age of the short documentary. And people can see shorts, of course online. And if you want things more curated, there are a lot of ways to see shorts that someone else has already gone through. And the great thing about a short is, if you don't like it, like it's going to be over soon. So there's sites, for example, New York Times Op Docs. I mean, that's so well curated. There's some that are less well known, like one called Short of the Week. It's a website and another one called Leto. I'll send you the links to share with everybody. But there's some amazing places where you can watch really high-quality documentary shorts, online.

Leah Jones 36:21

Cool. I know that sometimes in festivals, well, I don't think there's a sometimes because it's hard to move people. Moving bodies is complicated. They'll do a shorts block. So you'll go in and you'll watch 3 to 10 shorts.

Liz Nord 36:40

Yeah, that’s very common. And there's usually several blocks. I mean, imagine this, I know I keep talking about Sundance, but it's because that's where most recently I worked for the past four years. But they saw the shorts programmers there. They say that they watch every single submission, which is an incredible feat. Because there are almost 10,000 Short submissions a year. So that the ones that get through that gate, or whatever are like going to be pretty strong. But there's this kind of way I say it's a golden age of shorts, because there's just so many people making shorts now that the gear and the analogy is so much more accessible. That means there's a lot more crap out there. But it also means there's a lot greater stuff. And I'll make one other note too, because I think this episode is going to come out soon.

Leah Jones 37:32

Christmas morning. People will unwrap this on Christmas morning.

Liz Nord 37:39

So it's a perfect time to mention that also every year, the Oscars puts in I don't know who actually makes it but somebody makes on behalf of the Oscars, the Oscar nominated shorts programs in theaters across the country. I always have so much fun watching those. And then when you watch the Oscars, you actually know what the shorts are. So I would recommend that folks look in their local theaters for the Oscar nominated shorts programs. And there's usually the documentary one has its own screening. I love going to the best animated shorts nominations and the best live action shorts, as well. So that's always a fun thing to do in January and early February.

Leah Jones 38:23

Those are for sure available in Chicago. And you don't have to be in a major city. You just have to be in a town with a theater with somebody who loves movies, and still loves movies, and you'll get the chance to see.

Liz Nord 38:36

So to get back to your question.

Leah Jones 38:39

Tell me about your Longs.

Liz Nord 38:41

Yes, my Longs. So the way that I thought about categories was almost in opposition to the categories that we talked about earlier like the typical categories of historical, animal, true crime, those are categories, but there's all these other categories. And of course you could split out by gender, country, whatever, that's also really interesting. But my categories are and I think some of them are accepted in the industry as categories. So I ended coming up with a bunch of categories. I'm trying to figure out how to even narrow down to share with everyone because this could take all day. So I'm gonna start and we'll see where we get. But because we had talked about Trembling Before God and Super Size Me earlier, maybe I'll bring us up-to-date on some more kind of contemporary doc's that are in those general categories. So for example, Trembling Before God, it might feel all into the modern like observational or cinema verité category, and or the character centered doc, there's a lot of overlap between the two of those. But like cinema verité is the classic documentary mode if folks have heard of Albert Maysles, and the Maysles brothers and other really famous longtime documentarian, that's this idea of the quote unquote, Fly On The Wall. But more contemporary filmmakers have acknowledged that you're not really a Fly On The Wall. But being