So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

FIRE

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast takes an uncensored look at the world of free expression through the law, philosophy, and stories that define your right to free speech. Hosted by FIRE's Nico Perrino. New episodes post every other Thursday. read less
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Episodes

Ep. 211: Generational differences and civil liberties with Neil Howe
11-04-2024
Ep. 211: Generational differences and civil liberties with Neil Howe
In late 2013, some of us at FIRE started noticing a change on college campuses. Students, who were previously the strongest constituency for free speech on campus, were turning against free speech. They began appealing to administrators more frequently for protection from different speakers and using the language of trauma and safety to justify censorship. What changed? Neil Howe may have an answer. He is a historian, economist, and demographer who speaks frequently on generational change. His most recent book, “The Fourth Turning is Here,” was published last year. Howe argues that history has seasonal rhythms of growth, maturation, entropy, and rebirth and that different generations take on different attributes reflecting their place in the cycle. Joining Howe and host Nico Perrino for the conversation is FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff, co-author of “The Canceling of the American Mind." Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 6:10 Neil’s intent with his book, “Generations” 13:12 Pattern in American history 17:08 The nomad archetype 25:00 Covid and the younger generation 27:28 Do people shape events? 35:35 Gen-Xers and Millennials 41:45 The Fourth Turning 50:24 William James’ “The Moral Equivalent of War” 57:08 Are Gen-Z actually Millennials? 58:10 Dominant generations 01:06:40 How do generational cycles impact civil liberties? 01:10:57 Summary of Millennials 01:18:15 Peaceful periods lead to greater inequality  1:19:16 Outro   Show Notes  Neil Howe’s Substack, “Demography Unplugged” Greg Lukianoff’s Substack, “The Eternally Radical Idea”
Ep. 209: ‘Is money speech?’ with Robert Breedlove
25-03-2024
Ep. 209: ‘Is money speech?’ with Robert Breedlove
There is a recurring debate in the free speech community regarding whether money is speech.    Bitcoin-focused entrepreneur, writer, and philosopher Robert Breedlove joins us today to help resolve the debate. Describing money as “the language of human action,” Robert makes the case that money, like the cryptocurrency Bitcoin, is information and should be free from government regulation and manipulation. During this longer-than-usual episode, Robert and Nico discuss everything from Keynesian economics and 3D-printed firearms to the Chinese Communist Party.    Robert is the host of the popular podcast, “The ‘What is Money?’ Show,” which dives into the nature of money by asking guests one simple question: What is money? In 2020, he co-authored the book, “Thank God for Bitcoin: The Creation, Corruption and Redemption of Money.”   Timestamps   0:00 Introduction 3:56 Robert’s background  19:21 What is Austrian economics?  24:23 Is money speech?  44:48 Can money express irrational things?  51:59 Is access to perfect information always a good thing? 1:05:17 Bitcoin and anonymity 1:18:14 Prediction markets  1:31:49 Is code speech? 1:39:59 Is economic freedom more fundamental than freedom of speech? 1:49:13 Regulating bitcoin 1:55:16 Bitcoin ETFs 1:57:03 Rapid-fire Bitcoin questions 2:03:15 Does more access to information make the world a better place?  2:06:53 Outro    Show Notes    “The ‘What is Money?’ Show” “The Creature from Jekyll Island” by G Edward Griffin “The Bitcoin Standard” by Saifedean Ammous “The Use of Knowledge in Society” by Friedrich Hayek “The Logic of Scientific Discovery” by Karl Popper “Areopagitica” by John Milton
Ep. 206: CJ Hopkins compared modern Germany to Nazi Germany. Now he’s standing trial.
15-02-2024
Ep. 206: CJ Hopkins compared modern Germany to Nazi Germany. Now he’s standing trial.
J Hopkins is an American playwright, novelist, and political satirist. He moved to Germany in 2004. He publishes a self-titled blog on Substack and is the editor of Consent Factory Publishing.    CJ’s most recent book, “The Rise of the New Normal Reich,” draws a parallel between Nazi Germany and the response to the COVID-19 pandemic. In August 2022, it was banned on Amazon in Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands. In the months that followed, CJ was charged by German authorities with violating a section of the German penal code that prohibits “disseminating information, the intention of which is to further the aims of a former National-Socialist organization [the Nazis].” He was recently acquitted, but the prosecutor chose to appeal the decision.    In the coming months, CJ will stand trial — again — for a crime he claims he didn’t commit and for which he has already been acquitted.   **We are launching on Substack this week! Nothing will change for our listeners. It’s just another way to support the podcast and FIRE. Premium subscribers will receive a FIRE membership and access to our new monthly “Members Only” Zoom chats, where we will discuss free speech news and happenings at FIRE. Members will also be able to ask Nico and other FIRE staffers questions.**   Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 2:58 Who is CJ Hopkins? 9:35 CJ moves to Germany 15:02 CJ’s work since 2004 18:23 Berlin in 2020 27:18 “The Rise of the New Normal Reich” 34:01 CJ’s book banned in Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands 37:05 German investigation 47:26 German sensitivities to Nazism  50:17 Why didn’t CJ just pay the fine?  54:03 CJ goes to trial 1:03:29 Double-jeopardy / prosecutorial appeal 1:08:49 Does CJ have regrets? 1:12:50 Conclusion   Show Notes  Atlantic profile by Jamie Kirchick  “Berlin Diary” by William L. Shirer  “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by William L. Shirer “The Rise of the New Normal Reich” by CJ Hopkins Consent Factory  “The Verdict” by CJ Hopkins, a Substack article about the conclusion of his first trial “The Rise of the New Normal Reich: Consent Factory Essays, Vol. III, banned in Germany, Austria, and The Netherlands!” by CJ Hopkins, a Substack article about his book being banned on Amazon Transcript
Ep. 205: An anarchist’s perspective with Michael Malice
01-02-2024
Ep. 205: An anarchist’s perspective with Michael Malice
Michael Malice is a self-described “anarchist without adjectives” and is the author of several books, including most recently “The White Pill: A Tale of Good and Evil.” He is also the host of the podcast, “YOUR WELCOME,” and the subject of the biographical comic book, “Ego & Hubris: The Michael Malice Story.”   Michael joins us today to explain why he hates the term “free speech,” and gives his thoughts on McCarthyism, anarchism, Twitter, and more.     Timestamps   0:00 Introduction 0:46 Who is Michael Malice? 6:45 What is an anarchist without adjectives? 7:26 The definition of anarchism/prominent anarchists  8:01 How do we have free speech in an anarchist society? 16:54 The McCarthy Era 20:38 Students for Justice in Palestine 24:57 Should we advocate for a culture of free speech? 30:44 “Hitman”  34:01 What is the core right under an anarchist system? 36:26 Elon, Twitter, and free speech 44:38 Emma Goldman and McCarthyism 55:27 Cancel culture   1:01:37 From Emma Goldman to Solzhenitsyn 1:05:31 What is it like to live under an authoritarian regime? 1:12:23 The war in Ukraine 1:15:24 Outro Show Notes    “Dear Reader: The Unauthorized Autobiography of Kim Jong Il” by Michael Malice  “Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors” by Rex Feral (pseud.) “Khrushchev's Secret Speech” (Encyclopedia Britannica entry) “My Disillusionment in Russia” by Emma Goldman “Schenck v United States” (1919) “The Anarchist Handbook” by Michael Malice “The Gulag Archipelago” by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn   “The New Right: A Journey to the Fringe of American Politics” by Michael Malice Episode Transcript
Ep. 202: The backpage.com saga
21-12-2023
Ep. 202: The backpage.com saga
We’re joined today by Elizabeth Nolan Brown, Robert Corn-Revere, and Ronnie London to discuss the history and verdict of the Backpage trial.  Backpage.com was an online classified advertising service founded in 2004. As a chief competitor to Craigslist, Backpage allowed users to post ads to categories such as personals, automotive, rentals, jobs and — most notably — adult services. In 2018, the website domain was seized by the FBI and its executives were prosecuted under federal prostitution and money laundering statutes. The trial concluded this year, resulting in the acquittal and convictions of several key executives.  Some First Amendment advocates are concerned that the Backpage case represents a “slippery slope” for the prosecution of protected speech and the rights of websites that host user-generated content. Elizabeth Nolan Brown is a senior editor at Reason Magazine, where she has written about the Backpage case in detail.  Robert Corn-Revere is FIRE’s chief counsel and a frequent guest of the show. Prior to joining FIRE, he represented Backpage in private practice. Ronnie London is FIRE’s general counsel and another frequent guest of the show. He also represented Backpage when he was in private practice prior to joining FIRE. Timestamps 00:00 Introduction  06:55 The origins of Backpage  10:40 The significance of classified ads  14:52 Are escort ads protected?  19:07 Federal memos indicating Backpage fought child sex trafficking 23:19 Backpage content moderation 34:44 Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act 42:59 “De-banking” and NRA v. Vullo 52:24 The verdict  1:00:34 Could these convictions be overturned?  1:02:49 Outro Show notes  Backpage.com url 2018 Backpage indictment Elizabeth Nolan Brown’s 2018 Backpage profile Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act NRA v. Vullo The Travel Act
Ep. 199: Israel, Hamas, and censorship at home
09-11-2023
Ep. 199: Israel, Hamas, and censorship at home
The FIRE team gets together to discuss the October 7 attacks in Israel and the resulting censorship on college campuses in the United States.  FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff, Director of Campus Rights Advocacy Alex Morey, and General Counsel Ronnie London join host Nico Perrino for the conversation. ** We will conduct a listener survey starting Monday, Nov. 13. “So to Speak” listeners who subscribe to the show’s email list will receive an email with a link to the survey. If you are not an email subscriber, you can subscribe at the bottom of sotospeakpodcast.com or by subscribing to the general FIRE email list at thefire.org and noting that you would also like to subscribe to the “So to Speak” list. We appreciate your feedback: It will help us improve the show!   Timestamps 5:13 - October 7 attacks on Israel  6:04  - Greg’s initial thoughts  14:58 - Alex’s initial thoughts 20:29 - Protected vs. unprotected expression  28:11 - Statements from donors, students and faculty; double standards 40:49 - Institutional neutrality and the Kalven Report 51:01 - Combating Anti-Semitism, the Daryl Davis example  54:46 - Students for Justice in Palestine  1:01:48 - Tearing down posters    Show Notes Transcript Harvard student group letter (The public-facing Google Doc that originally hosted the letter was deleted.)  Bill Ackman letter to Harvard The Kalven Report Daryl Davis  FIRE Letter to University of Florida President Ben Sasse re: Students for Justice in Palestine (after recording this episode, Brandeis University derecognized its campus chapter of SJP. Here is FIRE’s letter to Brandeis). Ron DeSantis, Tim Scott, and Marco Rubio call to revoke student visas  Trump Truth Social post calls for the expulsion of students who support Hamas
Ep. 197 ‘Are cakes speech?’ with Alliance Defending Freedom’s Kristen Waggoner
12-10-2023
Ep. 197 ‘Are cakes speech?’ with Alliance Defending Freedom’s Kristen Waggoner
President, CEO, and general counsel of the Alliance Defending Freedom, Kristen Waggoner, joins us for a discussion on freedom of speech and religious liberty. ADF has played various roles in 74 U.S. Supreme Court victories and since 2011, has won cases before the Court 15 times.  According to its website, “ADF is the world's largest legal organization committed to protecting religious freedom, free speech, marriage and family, parental rights, and the sanctity of life.” ADF has litigated many high profile and controversial free speech cases, including the recent Supreme Court case involving a web designer who didn’t want to be compelled to design websites for same-sex weddings. Before that, ADF litigated the 2018 Masterpiece Cakeshop case, which involved a cake designer who similarly didn’t want to provide his services for same-sex weddings on religious grounds. After the initial conversation was recorded, The Washington Post and The New Yorker released articles critical of ADF. Nico and Kristen recorded an additional, brief conversation to address these articles. That is included at the end of the podcast.  Transcript: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-are-cakes-speech-alliance-defending-freedoms-kristen Timestamps: 0:43 - Introduction 6:16 - Kristen’s path to ADF 12:54 - ADF’s international team 14:20 - Pavi Rasanen controversy 19:24 - What does it mean to be a ministry?/blasphemy laws 22:56 - ADF’s Supreme Court cases  26:58 - 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis  28:56 - Public accommodation laws/Masterpiece Cakeshop 40:40 - Pre-enforcement challenges 42:50 - Facial challenges 47:32 - Test cases or fake cases? 49:44 - Yale incident 57:50 - Other campus shoutdowns 1:00:08 - L.M. v. Town of Middleborough  1:14:27 - Kristen addresses WaPo article 1:15:38 - Kristen addresses New Yorker article    Related Articles/Podcasts: “Inside the tactics that won Christian vendors the right to reject gay weddings,” Jon Swaine and Beth Reinhard (The Washington Post) “Are ADF’s Cases ‘Made Up’?” Lathan Watts (ADF, response to The Washington Post) “The next targets for the group that overturned Roe,” David D. Kirkpatrick (The New Yorker) FIRE’s response to Kristen Waggoner Yale incident  FIRE’s response to Anne Coulter Cornell incident FIRE’s response to Ilya Shapiro Georgetown incident FIRE’s response to Ian Haworth UAlbany incident “The Imperfect Plaintiffs” (“More Perfect” podcast with Julia Longoria)   Cases Discussed: Dubash v. City of Houston (Animal rights activists lawsuit, 2023) Paivi Rasanen (Finnish lawmaker charged with incitement against gay people) 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis (2022)  Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd. v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission (2017)  Uzuebgunam v. Preczewski (2021)  West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943)  Wooley v. Maynard (1997)  Plessy v. Ferguson (1986)  L.M. v. Town of Middleborough (2023)   www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org
Ep. 196 ‘The Identity Trap’ by Yascha Mounk
27-09-2023
Ep. 196 ‘The Identity Trap’ by Yascha Mounk
Writer and academic Yascha Mounk argues that a new set of ideas about race, gender, and sexual orientation have overtaken society, giving rise to a rigid focus on identity in our national debate. In his new book, “The Identity Trap: A Story of Ideas and Power in Our Time,” Yascha seeks to take these ideas seriously, understand their origin, dissect their merits and failings, and offer a path forward to avoid what he calls “the identity trap.” On today’s show, Mounk previews his book and explains how the identity trap harms freedom of speech. Mounk is known for his work on the rise of populism and the crisis of liberal democracy. He is a professor of the practice of international affairs at Johns Hopkins University and the author of five books. He is also the founder of the digital magazine Persuasion, a contributing editor at The Atlantic, and a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. Transcript: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-identity-trap-yascha-mounk Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction1:35 - Origins of “the identity trap”8:48 - What is “identity synthesis?”12:26 - Is “cultural Marxism” a thing? / The intellectual history of identity synthesis27:47 - Critical race theory32:30 - Free speech culture40:22 - Speech and violence47:58 - The Law of Group Polarization 52:27 - How to escape the identity trap Discussed intellectuals:  Derrick Bell  Kimberlé Crenshaw  Jacques Derrida  Michel Foucault Christopher Rufo (Rufo’s book, “America’s Cultural Revolution,” and Nico’s review, “Christopher Rufo Became the Thing He Claims to Hate”) Edward Said Jean-Paul Sartre Gayatri Spivak  Cass Sunstein (article: “The Law of Group Polarization”) www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org
Ep. 193 Can you still have a debate in high school debate?
10-08-2023
Ep. 193 Can you still have a debate in high school debate?
High school debate is considered an ideal extracurricular activity for aspiring lawyers, politicians, or anyone seeking to learn the tools of effective communication and persuasion. But a slew of recent reports argue that high school debate is being captured by political ideology, rendering certain arguments off-limits, some debate topics undebatable, and ad hominem attacks fair game. Debate judges disclose their judging paradigms by saying things like, “I will listen to conservative-leaning arguments, but be careful,” or, “Before anything else, including being a debate judge, I am a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. . . . I cannot check the revolutionary proletarian science at the door when I’m judging.” Some debates even devolve into personal attacks, spurred on by judges who say they “will consider indictments of an opponent on the basis that they have done [or] said something racist, gendered, [or] -phobic in their personal behavior.” On today’s show, we’re joined by two former high school debaters who are dismayed by these trends. James Fishback is the founder of Incubate Debate, which hosts free debate tournaments for students in Florida. Matthew Adelstein is a rising sophomore studying philosophy at the University of Michigan and publishes Bentham's Newsletter, a newsletter about utilitarianism. Show notes: Transcript of episode “Part I: At high school debates, debate is no longer allowed” by James Fishback “Part II: At high school debates, watch what you say” by James Fishback “How critical theory is radicalizing high school debate” by Maya Bodnick Nico’s current reading list on critical theory: “Grand Hotel Abyss” by Stuart Jeffries and “America’s Cultural Revolution” by Christopher F. Rufo www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org